Please Help Featherfin with a cloudy eye

[jodilynn]

I have a six inch Synodontis Eupterus in a 10 gallon tank. Yes, I realize it's too small a tank, and yes, it gets worse. "Leo" is in there with 1 spotted loach, 1 clown pleco, an albino bristlenose pleco, 2 corys, 3 rosy tetras, 5 zebra danios, 1 pearl danio, 1 betta and 1 Sunset gourami.

Grandma is always very excited to pick up my kids fish for their tank. I think I may have hurt her feelings when I actually hollered at her the last time. But that's how I wound up with "Leo" who was only a couple inches long when she bought him. And most of the other fish were added as "surprises!".

I did a water change a few days ago, about 20%, replaced the filter media (I soaked the new stuff in the water change water for 3 weeks). Water looks a bit cloudy? Added Cycle and Aquasafe. We have well water so no worries about chlorine. My test strips are old I can't get a good hold on what the nitrite/nitrate reading is. Hardness 75ppm (soft), no chlorine, alkalinity 300ppm (high), ph between 7.2 and 7.8, temp 75 degrees.

I did add some AmQuel+ today as a precaution

His left eye is cloudy. I noticed it last night. I did spook him when I was cleaning the tank. He for whatever reason decided yesterday to desperately cram himself into a little bitty cave that houses my very very angry clown pleco. His name is "Crabby" with good reason! Could he have injured himself? Or could the pleco have attacked him?

He seems to be eating and all the other fish look healthy and are well fed and active. But we all know how quickly that can go south.

I do have another small tank (Grandma doesn't know about) that I can relocate some of the fish to.

Please advise! I was buying Leo a 55 gallon tank, but my son was hostpitalized (he's fine) so I think that money may now be allocated to medical bills.

Thank you (and yes feel free to holler at me about being a horrible person who has a severely overstocked fishtank).

[Richard B]

i suspect it is one of two things: physical damage (from being in a small crowded tank) or an infection brought about by diminishing water quality (from the crowding in a small tank). With both you need to prevent it happening again/further by removing the cause first.

Grandma needs to stop buying fish! maybe she would get an extra filter or a new bigger tank? Really heavily stocked tanks can be successful if there is massive filtration, impecable water quality from very frequent changes & there are no terrotorial disputes

Splitting off some of the fish would certainly help as would increased water changes. i'd be tempted to put the clown pleco, danios & tetras in the other tank. The syno really needs a much bigger tank pretty soon though or see if a store will trade you for something else - maybe syno nigriventris?

[Viktor Jarikov]

Welcome to the Planet, Jodilynn!

Well, you are quite knowledgeable yourself, so there is no need for reproaching. I like very much Richard's brilliant idea - if Grandma is so passionate about your/your kids hobby, she could start saving for a 55 gal now (it is only ~$100 new from an LFS or ~$20-$40 used from a Craigslist) instead of buying new fishes... and hence, there'd be no place for inter-family tension ... except your work load will increase... I guess there is no 100% victimless out

Leo could have damaged the eye himself - in such a small tank with decorations, it'd be no big wonder; or a tankmate could have poked him in the eye; or the pleco might have attacked him, as you said; or, commonly, a less than pristine water might have led to that (a stress reaction); or, at worst, the stress could have caused a weakening in the immune system and a bacterial infection arose.

Usually, good water, diet, and overall good keeping conditions will heal that. If it is an infection, it is not uncommon to have to use a med, e.g., an antibiotic from the tetracycline family. I've read some keepers stating that Melafix helped their fish's cloudy eye(s), albeit I never understood how because Melafix is a very mild, superficial anticeptic. Still, their experience cannot be discarded.

Your WCs may be insufficient, leading to an accumulation of nitrates. I'd do at least 50%-75% weekly. High nitrates can give rise to many various problems.

If by any chance you have a bit of a problem with ammonia, higher pH worsens it but I am not sure about high alkalinity. Others, please correct me if I am wrong. I'd not consider pH of ~7.5 high though.

[jodilynn]

Thanks guys!

I ran out today and bought Leo his own 10 gallon tank. I got the el cheapo Tetra Aquarium kit on sale, but it's got a filter and a hood and a heater and it's fine for one fish. YES I know it's a temporary fix. But he's going in there ALONE with just his cave, a small plant, a bubblewand and some smooth rocks. And I don't have a plug for the lid light so it'll be nice and dark like he likes it.

The tetras and the world's angriest Clown pleco are in the smaller tank. Less crowded in the original 10 gallon. I did test the ammonia level in that tank and it is "ideal". I really think he whacked his eye. It doesn't look better, but it's no worse. I'm not really sure I'm going to treat it, I'll have to see how it goes and also figure out what meds I have available. I think I have Melafix (don't ask, I spent 70 bucks medicating a sick tetra, I think I have every available medicine on hand...and yes it died... but I tried).

I rinsed the new filter material in some old water. I'm going to take hopefully 5 gallons from the other 3 tanks to start the new one. Cycle and Aquasafe of course.

How soon before Leo can move to his temporary new home?

The one retailer in the area is offering tanks for a dollar a gallon, so I am picking up a 55 (for $55!). And I think it's a great idea to ask for a stand, hood, etc. for gifts, and it'll give me time to save to cover the rest.

I did talk to the LFS (which I assume stands for "local fish store" ) and they would take Leo but no trade ins or cash. Then they sell them for $60 ! But I hope people here understand how you get attached to these creatures, and I am especially so with my catfish. And I've seen a lot of "Sqeakers" there and Leo is so so much prettier,his fins are magnificent and his spots and coloring are just gorgeous. I can't bear myself to part with him and then always wonder what happened to him, if he was getting chewed up in some African tank, if they weren't feeding him right (peole don't eat as well as he does!). etc.

AWESOME WEBSITE!!!!!

[Viktor Jarikov]

Sounds good. Are you asking how to cycle a tank and how to determine it is cycled? I prefer fishless cycling, using either medicinal ammonia or fish food to feed the bacteria. Usually takes at least 4-6 weeks. One can seed the tank with a commercial product (like BioBoost from petsolutions.com $20 for 1/2 gal and many others) or with the biofilter media and/or substrate from an established tank. Seeding may cut down on the waiting time by a few weeks. Once you think the tank's cycled and both the ammonia and nitrite tests read zero even after you add say 1 ppm of ammonia half a day earlier, I'd get some feeders, preferably rosey reds or guppies, to test the tank and when they are ok in it for a week, one can introduce the target fish.

[jodilynn]

I would say the new tank is 2/3 full with water from the other tanks. The rest was well water. The gravel was from a 40 gallon I had when I was a teenager (half a lifetime ago)not new but not seasoned per say. I didn't put carbon in the filter, I had bought this huge pad of filter material that I can cut into different shapes for my different filters when I can't run carbon, so that's in there. There are no bubbles on the glass or gravel or plant. I dosed it with Amquel+, Cycle and Aquasafe.

I was hoping to move him in sooner than later. Like a few days or week? I don't really want him in his current situation any longer plus I'd like to start a mild course of treatment (Melafix is really popular at our LFS, they sell you that before any chemical treatment and if that doesn't work then they go to the heavy stuff).

I did find some Melafix but I will need more to run a full 7 day treatment. Any opinions on adding a tablespoon or two of salt?

He currently eats dried Tubifex worms that I press to the glass, Tetra Min, earthworm, brine shrimp, bottom feeder shrimp, and spirulina pellets, HBH Supersoft Spirulina granules, Aqueon algae and bottom feeder rounds, and Hikari Spirulina rounds. Sometimes I put in sheets of dried algae but it's messy so I don't do it very often. Any other suggestions? Are they mainly vegetable eaters or more omnivores? How many times a day should he eat?

THANKS!

[Viktor Jarikov]

JL: I would say the new tank is 2/3 full with water from the other tanks. The rest was well water.
VJ: Water does not essentially contain beneficial bacteria (BB), just trace amounts. BB live on surfaces.

JL: The gravel was from a 40 gallon I had when I was a teenager (half a lifetime ago)not new but not seasoned per say.
VJ: Unless from an established and running tank, the gravel does not contain any BB.

JL: I didn't put carbon in the filter, I had bought this huge pad of filter material that I can cut into different shapes for my different filters when I can't run carbon, so that's in there.
VJ: Good. I don't ever use any carbon. Waste of space for my purposes. Using this space for the bio-media is the best.

JL: There are no bubbles on the glass or gravel or plant. I dosed it with Amquel+, Cycle and Aquasafe.
VJ: What's in "Cycle"? If there is no BB in Cycle, then you have not added any BB but just traces with your water. I'd not count it as seeding the BB colonies. You'd have to wait full 4-6 weeks or even longer and not just wait but feed the propagating BB with either ammonia or fish food or by placing feeder fish in the tank and feeding them.

JL: I was hoping to move him in sooner than later. Like a few days or week? I don't really want him in his current situation any longer plus I'd like to start a mild course of treatment (Melafix is really popular at our LFS, they sell you that before any chemical treatment and if that doesn't work then they go to the heavy stuff).
VJ: Between the tank where he is right now and being in an uncycled/undercycled tank, the first is 1000 times lesser of the two evils, IMHO.

JL: I did find some Melafix but I will need more to run a full 7 day treatment. Any opinions on adding a tablespoon or two of salt?
VJ: If none other fish are reported to have adverse reactions to salt, 0.5-1 tea spoon per gallon, a prophylactic dose, is fine. Add in say 3 steps over 3 days, not all at once. Do not use iodized salt.

JL: He currently eats dried Tubifex worms that I press to the glass, Tetra Min, earthworm, brine shrimp, bottom feeder shrimp, and spirulina pellets, HBH Supersoft Spirulina granules, Aqueon algae and bottom feeder rounds, and Hikari Spirulina rounds. Sometimes I put in sheets of dried algae but it's messy so I don't do it very often. Any other suggestions?
VJ: His diet is the best I've ever heard of, IMHO again.

JL: Are they mainly vegetable eaters or more omnivores?
VJ: Omnivores. Have you had a read of the data/caresheet in Cat-eLog? They eat any and all but given a choice mine always preferred flakes, pellets, etc. not so much fleshy foods but did take those too.

JL: How many times a day should he eat?
VJ: Once a day. One day a week he can even fast, if he eats real well the other 6 days.

[jodilynn]

Here's the information on Cyle and Amquel, and Tetrasafe:

Cycle:

NutraFin Cycle is a responsive biological aquarium supplement that ensures that all aquariums are immediately inoculated with a powerful team of beneficial bacteria, providing a safe biological habitat for your fish. These highly effective micro-organisms will create a biological flora that quickly metabolizes lethal ammonia and nitrite. Ammonia and nitrite are a result of fish waste, excess decomposing food and other decaying organics that naturally occur in aquariums. The use of NutraFin Cycle Biological Aquarium Supplement is strongly recommended for new aquariums as they do not contain the necessary concentrations of beneficial bacteria to metabolize the waste that fish produce.

Amquel +
Protects fish and invertebrates by eliminating nitrite, nitrate, and all forms of ammonia, chloramines, and chlorine
Does not interfere with the biological cycle
Functions equally well in fresh or salt water
Removes toxic pheromones
Removes toxic organics
Does not affect the water's pH
Is safe to use in reef and live rock aquariums

Aquasafe
Quickly makes tap water safe by neutralizing chlorine, chloramines and heavy metals harmful to your fish
Enhances your fish's natural, protective slime coating
Specially formulated with natural biopolymers which support the development of beneficial filter bacteria for healthy, clear water
Complete formula works in seconds
Safe for use in freshwater and marine aquariums

I am also planning on scooping a netfull of gravel out of the original 10 gallon.

His eye looks a bit better. It's not the whole eye, it's the upper part of the iris, the upper part of the clear "bubble" of his eye (they have such buggy eyes) and the upper part of the ring around his eye(sorry don't have technical names for that!). I think if were an infection it's be his entire eye vs. the upper third or so?

He's abandoned the cave and he's back in his floating log with Houdini, the spotted loach. Thing follows Leo everywhere. If he's in the log, the loach is in the log, if he's in the cave, the loach is in the cave, if he's hanging on the filter, the loach is under him. They lay on each other. You don't think it will be a problem seperating them? I know fish don't have "feelings" like people but the loach really seems "attached" to Leo (maybe not so much the other way around).

[jodilynn]

Question, if the cave, which is "natural rock"-looking with all kinds of nooks and crannies, same with the floating log, will putting those decorations into the new tank also add a lot of BB to the it, since there is a lot of surface area on them that should have BB colonized?

BEST THING: Grandma asked if we wanted her to pick up the new tank or some of the accessories !

[Viktor Jarikov]

Cycle looks like the stuff you needed - it seeds your new tank. Gravel will too. The decos as well. You must be well on your way to accelerated cycling - don't forget to feed your BB well.

You might be able to place your Leo in there in 1-2 weeks (if your mind's made up about pushing this envelop) but do not feed him for a week before the move and for 3-4 weeks after - he will be fine. Then start feeding very, very lightly, gradually working towards his usual amount and reaching it in a month or so. If you read ammonia or nitrite within 6-24 h of him being in the new tank, it means the tank had not been ready.

Just my thoughts. I hope others will correct me if I am wrong or augment.

[jodilynn]

The new tank now has gravel, the cave, a plant and an old filter cartridge from the established tanks. I have also been crumbling a bit of fishfood into powder and putting that in the tank.

As I was arranging the gravel, cave, plants etc. I noticed there was a slickness/film on the rocks, nothing major, just noticeable. Is that BB?

He won't be going in the tank until I'd say at least next weekend. Eye showing the slightest slightest bit of improvement but I am worried as my daughter and I will be on the other side of the state at a hockey tournament and I don't exactly trust the hubby with the fish !

[Viktor Jarikov]

Sounds good.

As I was arranging the gravel, cave, plants etc. I noticed there was a slickness/film on the rocks, nothing major, just noticeable. Is that BB?

AFAIK, yes. BB's form a clear or slightly colored (brownish) film on surfaces.

[jodilynn]

The eye is looking better, the iris is still a bit cloudy but improving. He has a couple superficial scratches on his side(I'm assuming from the new piece of driftwood in the tank, I had to put the smaller piece in the smaller tank for the clown pleco and a new piece in the top 10 gallon for the albino bristlenose). Bought him some sinking Hikari Cichlid Gold pellets and API Bottom Feeder pellets.

He also apparently eats freeze dried baby shrimp. Found that out by accident.

Best news is my LFS has 55 gallon complete set-ups for $190. Even with the Buck a Gallon sale at the other LFS I can't get a better price. Now I just need a stand, airpump, tubing, etc and a bigger gravel vac. And lots of hiding places for a big Syno and hopefully some Plecos (the LFS has an L128 and a L190 I think if I bought those my husband would probably file for divorce because of the prices!) The tank will be up and running sooner than I thought!

We actually measured Leo, his body legnth is 3 inches and almost 4.5 with his tail. He is smaller than he looks. The same local retailer that he was purchased at is again selling them at about 1 inch, identified only as "Lace Syndontis". They're also selling "Hybrid Syndontis", at about the same size, they're silvery gold with big brownish black spots. What in the world is that? Pretty fish but I have a feeling it's another 8 incher!

[Viktor Jarikov]

Probably this http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/sp ... es_id=2112

If not - look at the other syno hybrids. It could grow to 8" SL because one of its likely parents, the decora, is a large syno (~1' SL) but that will take a long time, perhaps like 5-10 years, and proper care.

[jodilynn]

Would it be possible to keep more than one Synodontis in a 55 gallon tank?

[Birger]

identified only as "Lace Syndontis".

This is usually considered a Lace Synodontis

Synodontis nigrita

selling "Hybrid Syndontis", at about the same size, they're silvery gold with big brownish black spots. What in the world is that?

Could look here as well, our hybrid syno thread http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =8&t=28659

Would it be possible to keep more than one Synodontis in a 55 gallon tank?

Absolutely, with careful consideration of the species.
Birger

[jodilynn]

This is usually considered a Lace Synodontis Synodontis nigrita

I did click on the link, thankyou, but the fish they are selling are definately juvenille Eupterus.

Could look here as well, our hybrid syno thread http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =8&t=28659?

Wow, I didn't realize there were so many hybrids? Why may I ask? None of them really look any nicer than the purebred parents.

Absolutely, with careful consideration of the species.
Birger

Cool!

[Viktor Jarikov]

Wow, I didn't realize there were so many hybrids? Why may I ask? None of them really look any nicer than the purebred parents.

If you take a read through the linked syno hybrid thread, you will learn much more. Hybridization is rarely, perhaps almost never done for easthetic reasons. Suffice to say most of it is driven by economic reasons and most hybrids appear to come from Eastern Europe countries, like Chech Republic. It also appears that the "hybridizers" in a large part aim to produce genuine-look-alikes that would sell at 1/5-1/2 of the price.

[jodilynn]

Leo and Houdini are in their new home. I have to say Leo looks positively miniscule in this new, fairly barren tank! After heading off a potential tradegy (the brand new heater in the tank suddenly quit working thank goodness my hubby went to three different stores and found one!), the two of them are currently hanging in the floating log, basking in a fairly comfortable 75 degree tank.

I decided to put Houdini (who is a Polka Dot loach, Botia kubotai) in because after reading up on the species, apparently my little loachy friend is supposed to be kept in groups of 3-6, which the LFS didn't tell me. I figured he kind of "adopted" Leo because they have similar habits (prefering a dim tank, hiding in logs and caves, eating...especially eating, ect),and it was best if they went in together. I do not know if Leo neccessarily agrees with my decision ...

Eye looks much better, iris still a bit cloudy, and the scratch on the side is fading away. Melafix treatment is about halfway done.

THANK YOU ALL FOR ALL YOUR HELP!