L201 male or female

[MarlonnekeW]

Hi Everyone,

Yesterday I was able to take some pictures of my L201. One of them is cleary a male (visible odontodes on his fin), but I was wondering if you can help me with the other three. Or are they still too young to sex?

Fish 1 (male):





Fish 2:





Fish 3:





Fish 4:




Thanks for your help!!!

[bekateen]

Hi Marlonneke,

How long (SL) is each?

Cheers, Eric

[MarlonnekeW]

I didn´t really measure them. Fish 2 is app. 6 cm TL. Fish 1 is bigger and the other two are about the same size.

[bekateen]

Your fish look like mine when I first got them.

#4 has low body profile and some odontode development. I'd predict male, but I'm not certain.

#1, #2, and #3 have higher, bulkier profiles than #4. That may indicate three females. As for body shape, #2 looks like it'll be female, #3 is skinnier overall and may turn out to be male, but if small may be too small to tell. #1 is tending towards female, but like others is an uncertainty.

So I expect at least one male and possibly two, but otherwise 3 females.

Feed them well and watch them grow.

Cheers, Eric

[MarlonnekeW]

Thanks!

I don't want to be stubborn but in my opinion fish 1 is 100% surely a male. I can spot very long odontodes on the first ray of his pectoral fin with my bare eye's. It's probably a very chubby male .

This is a close-up picture of this area of it's body.


In the first picture you can also see very long cheek odontodes.

I do have doubts about fish 2, though. It's the only one with a slightly different head shape. But it's still pretty 'hairy"

[bekateen]

I think #1, 2, and 3 are all a little iffy on gender. But I'm pretty sure someone there is female. Feed well and wait.

[Jobro]

#1 male, #2 female, #3 female, #4 male
#3&#4 are pretty much wildcards as they are betas.

[MarlonnekeW]

Thanks!! That´s better news than I expected .

If I want to buy 1 or 2 new additions to the group, is there a characteristic (head shape, body shape etc.) I have to pay extra attention to, because it might be visible even in non-mature fish, or should I just pick the best looking fish and hope for the best?

[bekateen]

I look at pectoral odontode growth and body contour (widening or narrowing between pectorals and pelvics).

Head height /profile may be higher in females, but that also might indicate contradens.

[Jobro]

I found for myself, that it is pretty hard to tell someone how to distinguish genders. It depends so much on the individual fish in question. You need to have seen quite some to get your own experiences. Would love to give you a foolproof way to sex em, but I can't.

It's basically a combination of headshape and width of body. Try to compare #1 and #2.
Odontode growth is only viable, to determine an alpha male. Betas will not show it as strong. Some hypancistrus females are pretty hairy as well. Which can make an alpha female look like a beta male, if the the male is fat.

fish like #3 and #4 are pretty much just a guessing game. I made a guess, doesn't mean it is right. #1 and #2 I am pretty confident about my ID.

Above applies to Hypancistrus only.

[MarlonnekeW]

Thank you very much, guys! This really helps.

The comment about contradens is a good point as well. I made a deal with my LFS to exchange my juvanile L159 for some new fish. The plan was to get 1 or 2 new L201, but it's not their speciality, so it's up to me to determine if their fish are L201 or contradens. Maybe it's better to wait a while to see how these four will develop.

[Jobro]

Your fish are L201, no doubt.
Spot size is pretty much giving them away.

Here is reference for H Contradens:

H. Contradens adult Male

H. Contradens youngster

[Fundulopanchax76]

So contradens has bigger spots than L 201 ? Or not ?

[Jobro]

Yes, but there is also a difference in body dimensions.

Some L201 have pretty big spots, too:

L201

L201, big spots

L201, not so big spots

These fish have big spots and were sold to me as L201 Big Spot. I assumed they were H. Contradens at the time, but it is pretty obvious to me now, that they are different from my H. Contradens. Not sure if calling them L201 Big spot is accurate.

[MarlonnekeW]

Your fish are L201, no doubt.

Well, that´s sort of my point, I know what I have right now and don´t want to ruin it My LFS´s supplier is really good at mislabeling fish, so I can´t really trust them. At this LFS L201 (could be wild caught, could be tank bred) is also 2x as expensive as what I paid for my 5-6cm TL wild caught fish and almost 3x as expensive as a tank bred L201. So maybe it's better to try and find some other fish or plants to spend my credit on .

[bekateen]

Here's my original female that had the higher body profile. No longer than my males but much stockier. Might be contradens or the "L201 big spots" that other people say are small contradens.

This is not the female that spawned twice in my thread.

Cheers, Eric

[MarlonnekeW]

I just took another look at the pictures and I see now what you mean by nr. 2 and 3 having a higher bodyshape.

It's really fun to see new things eveytime I look at them

[Jobro]

They are females, that's why they have higher body shapes... Contradens and L201 bodyshape is... well, I will get you guys a picture...

[Jobro]

L201 Bigspot and H. Contradens Side by Side

The contradens look so much bulkier.

[bekateen]

They are females, that's why they have higher body shapes... Contradens and L201 bodyshape is... well, I will get you guys a picture...

Yes that is what I assumed too when I bought mine - higher body shape because of female body. However, I got plenty of comments from people who said they also had L201 big spot females that did not have the higher bodies (thus implying that the higher body meant different species).

This is complicated by the fact that L201 big spot is not considered to be a "large spot" variant of L201, but rather a "shorter body" variant of contradens. I've been told that all three forms (contradens, L201 and L201 big spot) live in the same river system and often get intermixed when collected, so it leaves me at a bit of a loss as to know whether the two bulkier females I have are truly L201 big spots like my males, or are they just small contradens. It may be very relevant that neither of my bulky females ever caved for any length of time with my original males. It's only the newer, smaller (and flatter) female that caved with both original males and who now has spawned with both males.

The take home message for Marlonneke is be careful of mixing these fish from different sources if you don't have confidence in the ID at LFS and if you can't really inspect them in advance and know what you are getting.

Cheers, Eric

[Jobro]

I think the shorter body variant of H. Contradens would be

Hypancistrus sp(L471)

?

Looking at my picture, both have approx. same body length. Yet one is so much bulkier...

I think there is no clean border between those species in the wild, which makes it so hard for us to put our "number" on them. Probably similar to the various Xingu Hypancistrus out there.

Anyhow, fish with smaller dots are usually always L201, right? So he would be fine getting some with small dots?

[bekateen]

I think the shorter body variant of H. Contradens would be

Hypancistrus sp(L471)

?

L201 big spot and L201 are both shorter than contradens, but L471 is even smaller than L201 (about half its size when full grown, according to the CLOG). From what I can see, perhaps L471 is a dwarf contradens? I'm not saying for sure, but speculating.

Anyhow, fish with smaller dots are usually always L201, right? So he would be fine getting some with small dots?

As far as I know, small spots combined with low body profile = L201. I don't know how small the spots can be on real contradens. And obviously anything called "big spot" is not going to have small spots.

Cheers, Eric

[Jobro]

Hm... the usual max SL data is often painting a strange picture. Many of the fish that are said to be in the 15cm ballpark hardly grow bigger than 10cm in the first 3-4 years. Fish probably grow as long as they live from what I know. So I would assume, you will find quite some bigger than average specimens in the wild. While the average of <5 year old specimens are probably a lot smaller. Going by sizes with a usually quite small base of measurements is sometimes misleading.

Both of my fish, that I believe to be H. Contradens, hardly exceed 8cm. They are massive, bulky. But not long at all. I know they are at least 5 years+ old.

So should I consider these to be no Contradens due to their small size?

New reports in germany state, that L471 offspring reached sizes of 9cm in hobbyists tanks while the parents stayed smaller.
This would put my own two specimens right in the L471 ballpark.

Also, L201 Big spot is not considered a small H. Contradens but rather a beautifull L201 over here

So many contradictions.

I might get my hands on some L471 actually. Strangely they are advertised at 7-9cm... haha I will let myself get surprised there.

[Fundulopanchax76]

We could guess who is who till the end of time without DNA tests ! If the three variants live in the same river system they could all be subspecies of one species !
When we speak about high head, we have to define is this higher head size is absolute or relative - i mean is really head size bigger than to other fish or just looks bigger because head of a female is not so wide like in a male ?
I have group of L 340 - all have same color pattern, from one source but some of them have really higher heads and shorter snout - does that mean that they are females ? Except that i have fish who look females - with bigger juicy bellies but their heads are not high !

[MarlonnekeW]

I can confirm now that I have at least one male and female, because they spawned last night .

I'm really surprised, because of their size (only about 6cm TL) and the fact that I bought them only 3 months ago. I will try to do another photo series on their development, so I'll keep you posted!

[bekateen]

[Jobro]

Congrats!

You know you will need to get another batch of pictures in some months, so we can clear up the gender guesses
Would really like to know if it is 2:2 or 3:1

[MarlonnekeW]

I'll do my best, but it would be even better if they would let me know (if I have a second female) the same way this female did .

[Jobro]

Don't think the second one is ready, yet ;)

only one looked like she was ready. But who know's?

[b.reder]

MarlonnekeW -
How did you take those photos? They are fantastic! -Barry