PlanetCatfish.com

Okay. As i said in an earlier post working at a pet store has stirred my interest in the hobby. I recently bought a 75 gallon tank (used).

Let me cut to the chase. I want it to be a planted tank.

So i bought flourite...

After I got some pete moss and topsoil and put a few inches on the bottom of the tank I went and bought 2 bags of fluorite. I rinsed it 1500 times but it would not clean. I assumed this was natural and placed it in the tank. And to my suprise the tank is clouded up like no tomorrow. Ive been running the filter and powerhead for 20 hours since i put it in and nothing. The cloudiness from the dirt is gone but the flourite isnt.

I looked around and apparently this has happened to other people. From what Ive learned if i wait a VERY long time it will settle (and by very long time i mean weeks), but then of course the slightest disturbance in the tank will mess it up again. The only answers thusfar are "oh just break the whole tank down and seperate the flourite from the 3 inches of dirt its sitting on top of and rinse it! Nice and easy!"

I am wondering if there are any other means of fixing this problem other than wasting hours of work. Or blasting my brains out.

Thanks

and conflicting information does not help either, this info I read contradicts what i read elsewhere. Unngg
http://aqualinkwebforum.com/eve/ubb.x/a ... 6006071522

I would simply do 160 water changes but Ive already added ammonia, amquel, and bacteria starter to it.

You need to do a large water change and rinse your filter out as much as possible. After that add water back at a slow trickle into a bowl resting on the bottom of the tank. Did I mention that you need to add the water back slowly... it should take you a hour or more to fill it up. put your filters back in and let it run for a while then add all your starter stuff. I also hope you planted it with fast growing stem plants(before you fill it) to help kick start it.

I made the same mistake myself once

Cheers, Whitepine

Not to worry. Whitepine's given you a great suggestion about pouring the water onto a bowl. I use the lid of a 5 gallon plastic container-the ones they sell at the big hardware super stores. It really does help. Which ever you use, a bowl or a lid, please make sure it hasn't come into contact with any chemicals that can adversely impact the tank conditions, such as detergents, etc. Sometimes I put the filter floss(it looks like cotton batting) into a filter bag and rest it in the tank. This can help pick up some of the larger particles floating around if it's a really bad Flourite storm! I take it out once the "storm" passes. Good luck with your tank; 75 gallons is a great size. Let us know how you do. I look forward to some pictures.

So i suppose i have no choice but to do a water change and then add all the chemicals and so forth again.....

Well, back to work to buy more stuff!

you put topsoil and peatmoss in your tank???? several inches???

UH OH

the organic compoundlevels will go through the roof!
not to mention the production of swampgas and so fort; you created a home-swamp (!), and it should be no surprise that any aquatic plant put in there will rot right from the roots up from day #1

oh boy

If you put in any catfish that even remotely digs (like a Hoplo or something), you'll be looking at 75 gallons of MUD

aquatic plants rarely need fertilizers, and if they do, the kind that disperses through water (like Ferro-dung, spore elements, a CO2-disperser and the like) will do fine and better than that, even.

Only true swampplants (like Spathyphyllum, large Echinodorus etc) might need a bit of extra's in the substrate, but 20 grams of pulverized clay sprinkled on the glass before adding sand or fine gravel will keep a tank running for years.......or you might roll 'marbles' out of clay; dry them in an oven and put them in the vicinity of the roots of such a plant. usually does the trick.

organic "fertilizer" like topsoil usually pollute a tank in a totally uncontrollable way, making it almost unhabitable for fish to live in, except perhaps Lungfish or Clarias or so.

the oxygenlevels in the substrate and later the whole tank will head for the cellar

oh my

You're trying to mix too many philosophies at the same time. If you want a Diana Walstadt tank, go for it, but then follow her instructions to the letter. I've read her book but never tried it in practice. Her approach strikes me as incompatible with the kind of heavily stocked, high water change frequency tanks I run.

On the other hand, I've used Fluorite for years and never had a problem. The cloudiness settles in a day or two. Fluorite is best used alone, or in combination with normal gravel of the same size. Mixing with peat may be OK, but adding top soil isn't.

At this point I think your only road out of this mess is to break everything down, try to rinse the topsoil and peat out and start again.

BTW, you don't need to add any special chemicals to start your tank. A little bit of patience works best. "Cool aquarium chemicals" maybe good for your LFS's bottom line but not necessarily for your tank's health.

I've never heard of putting top soil in an aquarium. I assume that this is for a planted aquarium. IME with pond plants, the top soil is too light weight and floats too easily. Did you think about trying clay? However for an aquarium, I just go with flourite mixed with gravel (too expensive for me do do alone) + lots of light + CO2.

I too got interested again in aquariums after a long absense. As a kid with a ten gallon tank, I could never get plants to grow. I knew for sure I wanted a planted tank. After researching on the internet, I found a lot of references to using soil as a substrate. I bought Diana Walstad's book, "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium", and highly recommend it. A little over a year ago, I bought a 40 gallon breeder tank, put about an inch and a half of topsoil in the bottom and covered it with about an inch and a half to two inches of fine gravel (CaribSea Peace River). I planted an assortment of echinodorus, cryptocorne, anubias, aponogeton, and sagittaria. Filled it with water, turned on the lights (about 90 watts), and turned on the filter (Magnum 350 with two Bio-wheels). I left it for about a month before adding fish to allow the plants time to root. A year later, its a jungle. I have to prune back the plants to allow room for the fish. I don't do CO2 injection and I don't vaccuum gravel. I do recommend the Malaysian Trumpet Snails, they burrow through the substrate which I believe is beneficial. I do a 25% water change about every two to four weeks but that's mainly to replenish the minerals the plants use up. When I make the rounds at the LFS's and tell them what I've done, they look at me like I'm nuts (I am but that's beside the point). I don't have problems growing plants. I hope to be adding another tank in about a year or so, and if I continue to have the same success I do with this tank, it will have a soil substrate.

So i am getting conflicting reports here. What should be done!

rahendricks, what fish do you have in the planted tank?

I, too, am wondering if this would be a paradise for our bottom-loving catfish and loaches, or if they wouldn't stir things up too much.

Catfishmutant wrote:So i am getting conflicting reports here. What should be done!

I think what Sid said is a little bit drastic, but at the same time he's got a point. There's such a thing as "Too much of a good thing". Your tank setup reminds me (sorry, I've sometimes got weird associations) of a childrens radio program from Sweden, where the characters were making the perfect meal: Saussage Ice-cream. Saussage & Ice-cream where their favourites, so what could be better than combining the two.

You are going a little bit over the top. Sure, some plant-growing substrate is good, and quite a bit of it might be suitable for growing plants well, but will affect the ability to keep fish in the tank (if nothing else because there's no space for the fish to swim).

I think the sound advice is to start over. Put a thin layer of peat, then flourite. Or use a thin layer of top-soil and gravel on top. Don't try all three of peat, top-soil and flourite. That's Saussage ice-cream!

--
Mats

I agree that Flourite and peat moss and topsoil is probably redundant. How much Flourite is covering the topsoil? I'd be tempted just to leave it for a while. I tried Flourite in my qt a couple of months ago just to see how it compares to topsoil. Its too soon for me to have formed an option on it, but you're right, you wash it 1500 times and then put it in the tank and fill it and think I should have washed it 1501. The cloudiness does clear in about a week and I haven't really noticed it returning all that much when I've planted something in it. You're going to want to plant it and wait several weeks anyway for things to root and stabilize.
The fish I currently have in topsoil tank are ten Otocinclus vittatus, five Chaetostoma (three thomsoni and two I can't indentify), two Synodontis eupterus (which are going to have to be seperated), and three Synodontis nigriventris. I've never seen any of them rooting around in the substrate and don't believe they do. I do also have several species of Botia. Two almorhae, one dario, and one modesta (it will probably have to go back to the lfs because it will get too big for this tank). They root through the substrate like pigs but have never gotten down into the topsoil.

I have about an inch to an inch and a half depending on place. Towords the back of the tank there is even more flourite. The tank is slowly clearing, I can see through the tank now but its still cloudy. At the rate its going now i suspect either tomorrow or the next day it will be clear. I will take your advice and just put plants in it and wait a couple weeks.

I think i exageratted when i said 4 inches. I would say 2 inches.

Okay I got some crappy pictures. It looks worse than it actually does in the pictures because of bad lighting.

I didnt have a ruler on hand so I got a pack of playing cards to scale the depth of the soil.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/Bwaag/12312341.jpg



http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/Bwaag/1431342.jpg





http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/Bwaag/11113.jpg

And i know thats not the right way to be using a heater but i dont have the mounts and it was my guess heating the water would help the bottle o' bacteria i added. I will buy a new heater soon.

Ive recieved an email from a very knoledgable co worker, I will put her response here:

Have some patience
and it will clear- there is nothing stopping you
fromadding plants at this time except that the water
is murky right? Then let nature take it's course and
plant up a storm...by the time your cycle occurs
andyour plants have begun to grow in the tank will be
almost clear. The bacteria adhering to the particles
has a HUGE impact on the flourite settling out- but it
will take some time. Post this reply and see what the
others say, I have done this type of tank MANY times
and have alays had good results...in fact I have a 10
gallon running w/ the exact same setup right now. as
for the flouritebeing "over kill" that is nonsense!
Flourite only offers plants iron, and the type of iron
it offersis actually in an unmeasurable form- the
beneficial bacteria on the plant roots unlocks the
iron for the plants to uptake-and this is only as the
plants actual demands for iron increase.
Good luck and keep researching- remember that everyone
has an opinion...but not everyone has the science or
experience to back it up.

I dont have the intention of putting any sort of catfish in this thing aside from some small species of pleco to clean it. My 55 is another matter..

My only concern about the level of Flourite would be to keep rooting fish away from the topsoil. I don't think it would hurt them but it sure could muddy up the water. I do recommend Diana Walstad's book, however, I don't follow her advice to the letter. She uses powerheads to keep the water circulating, I actually have two filters. I started with a Magnum 350, but the prefilter kept plugging up with duckweed every week and a half, so I added a H.O.T. Magnum and now can go about three weeks before I have to clean them. I don't use carbon, they currently have Seachem de-nitrate in them, but I think I'll be switching over to Seachem Matrix. It looks like it will better suit my needs. A word about topsoil. This is farm country here and its hard to find topsoil that doesn't already have high nitrites and nitrates in it. After your tank cycles and the plants start growing the levels will drop but check them before you add fish. Also keep an eye to the pH. The Flourite won't have any effect, but the topsoil and peat moss will. The water will develop a golden hue. Looks natural to me but a lot of people have told me it would drive them nuts; they like the water crystal clear. The fish seem to like it. The two S. eupterus I have I bought last November. They had come in in a shipment of Oto's and the dealer didn't know what they were. He sold them to me as Oto's at the then sale price of 99 cents each. They were only an inch and a half long. They're now five and six inches. I'm certainly no expert, this is the first tank like this I've had, but so far I'm completely happy.

That makes sense about not wanting fish messing about the flourite making a bunch of mud if they go to the bottom. In some areas of the tank I have noticed the flourite is a bit thin. I suppose I will have the limit any bottom dwelling species to being small so they wont mess things up. Would a smaller species of pleco be wise for a situation like this or would it be too risky.

Do you have any coverings for the windows in the background? Just curious.

no, i figured natural sunlight would aid in plant growth.

plant and Algae growth! How close is it to the window?

Just one more suggestion. It is a lot easier to plant a tank with just a little water in the tank... just enough to cover the substrate. I ussually plant most of the stem plants and background plants at this time then fill it. I then fill in the rest of the plants after the tank has cleared and I can see where I want to place my forground plants or add more mid ground and background plants.

Cheers, Whitepine

WhitePine wrote:plant and Algae growth! How close is it to the window?

Yes, algae will grow better than the plants, and probably cover most of your plants pretty soon if you get too much light. How much is too much depends on a lot of things, including which type of plants and what type of algae. Another variable is what direction your window is, as a window that is facing south will catch a lot more light than a north facing one. North facing window would be fine, I should think, but a south-facing window is a recipe for algae-growth. Great if you have 80 or so baby ancistrus to grow out [I used to have algae growth problem with my gold-fish, because I couldn't find any free space other than a windowsill south-facing, but I put a few baby ancistrus in there, and they are keeping it nicely clean].

I'd say the best thing to do is to cover up the back of the tank to prevent the sunlight from hitting it [unless you want to empty the tank and move it, of course...]. Covering the back of the tank will also aid the fish to feel more secure, and you can hide cables, hoses and stuff behind the tank that way... I'd probably try to use something that is reflecting the light back out again next to the window too, so that the tank doesn't get too hot.

--
Mats

There are also excellent window shades out there in varying price ranges. Some are relatively cheap and some are outrageously expensive. There's something called a "Roc-Lon" drapery liners. These are liners for your existing drapes or curtains that provide an extra layer of light block and insulation. These liners are only for "pinch-pleat" types of drapes. There are tons of other solutions for covering windows. There are light-block shades, blinds, etc. All of these will lend some assistance. Also, adding a background to the tank will decrease the stress on the fish. I've seen this first hand.

Uhh a new problem. Now the water has developed a greenist tint....

Its green water which is fairly common to new tanks. If you have any daphnia.. they will take care of it for you... or you can check out this link for other ideas from aquaticplantcentral.com

use a strong diatomaceous earth filter. You'll probably have to run the filter several cycles before all the green water is removed.

A UV filter will work in 3 to 4 days depending on the flow rate.

or you can try turning off all the lights on the tank and surrounding the tank with towels or a blanket to shield it from light for 5 day. The Euglaena(green water) has no energy storage capacity and will die off with out light after a few days.

AND could you please change your location to something more exact like Chicago or even North Eastern Illinois.


Cheers, Whitepine

Its been more than a month and here is what my tank looks like:

(Nothing in it but 9 congo tetras, and a few juvenile malaysian needle snails from a recenetly died adult)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/Bwaag/516aecbb.jpg


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/Bwaag/0b44fb0a.jpg


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/Bwaag/de3dc2da.jpg


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/Bwaag/78132698.jpg


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/Bwaag/d9c7bdbb.jpg

I would never risk putting topsoil into a tank, but it looks like it's paid off for you.

looks like a jungle in there!