Say it isn't so...

[Fantasticfins]

I have been told by my wholesaler that ALL Queen Arabesque/King Tiger/333 types are now banned from exportation out of Brazil. Does anyone have any info saying the same thing or oposing it?
-Dale

[Barbie]

Holy cow, that would cover a huge amount of fish! I sure hope it isn't true!

Barbie

[Fantasticfins]

I was hoping that someone out there would have a simular idea as to what is going on with the exportation of these fish. I am still having trouble getting them in. Needless to say, I am watching my spawning groups more closely. If I can't get them from the wild, I might as well make sure I get as many fry as possible. I'm even growing out second groups of several of my fish just in case. You can't be too careful.

[Janne]

Brazil is working with a new list of permitted species, they have a positive list since before with many sp for example Peckoltia sp which have made it possible to export all Peckoltia species. The new list will only allowe scientific described species, I have no date when the new list will replace the old one.

Janne

[Yann]

Hi!!

Yes it will allow only described species to be exported but at the same time they will also make sure that a great number of undescribed species will get their own species name!!!

There are also some other things that will enter on which species can or cannot be exported

Cheers
Yann

[taksan]

That will simply add to the black rays and Zebras being taken upriver to Peru in order to be exported.

[Yann]

Hi!!
Trust me some bad exporters are still trying their best to send some directly from Brasil...and unfortunately some bad importers are still trying to import them at all cost!!!

This will hopefully stop when aquarist will stop willing this fish at all cost and breeders will stop selling these at all cost also, but as long as Money is more important than ethic and co... this is not going to stop anytime soon

Cheers
Yann

[Bas Pels]

You are right, Yann, but on the other hand, I fail to see how ethical a ban on the export of all un described species is.

Science describes, but does not care about the interests for trade, or fsh keepers.

Brasil is free to make its own laws, but if I''m not in brasil, I'm free to choose along my own concience, and if I fail to understand a foreign law, I certainly will ignore it.

However, I don't happen to have many fishes from brasil - though

[drpleco]

I'm guessing they're only allowing described species to be exported in order to prevent any species from being exploited. If, for example, L66 is very rare and L333 is common, someone might send out a box of L66 but labeled as L333 and make a lot of money while contributing to L66's exploitation.

Making sure that everything is labeled and exported appropriately protects the fish - decribed or not. In a perfect world, anyway.

I agree that it's unfortunate we'll have to wait for species to be described before we can get them again, but I'd rather have a small break rather than risk any species disappering alltogether.

i'm curious to see how this all works out....

[Bas Pels]

I'm thinking of classes of custom officers learning the differences between all the Loricarids

You know, 45 years of age, slightly overweight, typing with two fingers that kind of officers

Somehow I think the esxporters will still manage to get fishes through:mrgreen:

[MatsP]

Bas, I'm with you. Especially when it comes to those that take about 20 posts by people like Janne, Jon, Silurus, Barbie and Jools to sort out which one it actually is... ;)

--
Mats

[Janne]

but at the same time they will also make sure that a great number of undescribed species will get their own species name!!!

This will take very long time to achieve except for the one they are working on right now, they dont have the time or the money to work faster. Another positive side to only allowe described species is that the list will include a lot of species that today not are allowed to export...the positive list will be much larger but some species only allowed in quota's.

That will simply add to the black rays and Zebras being taken upriver to Peru in order to be exported.

This problem is very small today and will get even smaller in the future, this is an over estimated myth...it has happen but not more then that.

I'm guessing they're only allowing described species to be exported in order to prevent any species from being exploited. If, for example, L66 is very rare and L333 is common, someone might send out a box of L66 but labeled as L333 and make a lot of money while contributing to L66's exploitation.

This is the problem today and not that people try to smuggle fishes over the border, when most of this loricariids not are described and not any real studies made...they dont know today which species is threatened or not.

I'm thinking of classes of custom officers learning the differences between all the Loricarids. You know, 45 years of age, slightly overweight, typing with two fingers that kind of officers

They are not any exceptions for Brazil...they exist in all countrys. Honestly, I think they already know more about fishes then our own customers know in any other country...but we may have some hobbyist that work as a customer

Of course they will not get rid of the problem with identifying the right species but they do what they can to make it better.

Janne

[Yann]

Well the main problem in Brasil is that the govt (IBAMA) has passed some very strict laws regarding describing species by scientits abroad Brasil, which mainly has reduce the interest of Ichthyolog from foreign country to describe a brasilian species, mainly because the laws are quite harsh... for exemple they have to work with Brasilian partners, 50% of the type should be deposite in brasilian museum and the holotyp should also be deposite in a Brasilian museum...
Hopefully the things will ease it a bit and others Icthyologs will be able to describe more species form Brasil with less problems...

Cheers
Yann

[Janne]

For the moment there are several foreign ichtyologs working together with the Brazilian's, we will see some new species soon withing loricaridae, but there is many new species to describe. I can't see the problem needing to work and corperate with some universitys in Brazil, the main interest must be to find and describe new species before they are gone...not where the holotype would be deposited or other not important obstacles.

Janne

[Yann]

Hi Janne!!

Yeap I also know some of the coming work...;)
I agree with you regarding this topic, but remember Brasil feels it has been widely stolen in matter of bio diversity, and they have developed very protective laws... who could blame them, Europe, USA are doing exactly the same the other way around sure on other topics...

Cheers
Yann

[bucco]

Hello,

I´m from Germany. I wonder if anyone can tell me, which plecos are not exported by now, and if the will
change again and from what time the export stop will start or did it start already. Cause I have a list from
an exporter and he has very small L333 on it. Is it true that there is also a ban on L24 L25 L27? Here in
Germany you do not find any information about the export stop , so I hope you can help me?

Best regards
Andy

[racoll]

I agree with you regarding this topic, but remember Brasil feels it has been widely stolen in matter of bio diversity, and they have developed very protective laws

Control, restriction (if necessary) and scientific monitoring of the trade is a good thing, but it seems this hardline stance is hypocritical given the government condoned rampant deforestation for soya plantation and the construction of hydroelectric dams.

The impacts of localised and generally sustainable low level trade in ornamental fish are truly minuscule in comparison with the above.

the main interest must be to find and describe new species before they are gone...not where the holotype would be deposited or other not important obstacles

Things like this should not hold the process up as it is already standard good practice in taxonomy (provided these countries can demonstrate they have the facilities to maintain their collections for the indefinite future).

But surely it will take years if not decades to describe all the material available in the trade, and I wonder if there will be follow up ecological/population surveys to actually inform any species management decisions. These studies will also take years to complete. Describing a species will not tell you if it is vulnerable to over-fishing.

I fear if these rules are adhered to, many of our favourite fish will not be available for a long long time, which incidentally I am not opposed to per se, provided it is based on sound scientific advice and not a knee-jerk reaction, and that their habitat is also protected.

While I think a quota system is a good idea, will it just not mean that all the fish will end up in Japan and the far-east where the silly prices are paid?

[grokefish]

If certain species are banned from exportation and then the environment that they live in is destroyed while the species is described and (hopefully) a study on population sustainability is carried out, then that will be a very sad day indeed.

Matt

[bronzefry]

Bas, I'm with you. Especially when it comes to those that take about 20 posts by people like Janne, Jon, Silurus, Barbie and Jools to sort out which one it actually is... ;)

--
Mats

I'm with all of you folks on this one. If I write more, I'll say something I shouldn't.
Amanda

[MatsP]

I'm with all of you folks on this one. If I write more, I'll say something I shouldn't.
Amanda

Oh, go on...

--
Mats

[bronzefry]

To state it in a kind way, it seems new laws or rules come up that are inane since many of these critters will be living a "different lifestyle" with dams and such. These rules may make perfect sense to the person(s) making them up. But, the rules leave the rest of us to sit here, shaking our heads. As already stated, it seems most odd when the environments in question may already in trouble. I know I shouldn't be talking, as I am living in the US and our record is none too great. It seems we may be paying a price for a few bad apples who did as they pleased a while back. Please correct me if I'm wrong or out of line.
Amanda

[apistomaster]

Our own history of destroying unique salmon and steel head runs in the PNW by building impassable dams then supplementing the runs with inferior hatchery bred fish does not give us the moral high ground when it comes to critizizing the actions taken by the Brazilian Government. Maybe a cynical view but I think they want to reduce exposure of habitat and species loss that result from constructing there own hydroelectric resources to the world consciousness to minimize opposition and the proposed rules are little more than a smokescreen intended to obscure the extent to which there are many planned hydro projects proposed on most every river system with a suitable dam site. The Rio Madeira has two planned projects and these are in discus country. Once seasonal flows are controlled, all migratory species and those that depend on the annual floods for reproduction will become much scarcer.

[bronzefry]

Larry,
You worded it better than I did.
Amanda

[Mike_Noren]

Our own history of destroying unique salmon and steel head runs in the PNW by building impassable dams then supplementing the runs with inferior hatchery bred fish does not give us the moral high ground when it comes to critizizing the actions taken by the Brazilian Government.

I protest both local dams and the dams in the Amazon, although the Amazon dams are infinitely more damaging than the local ones in terms of species lost. The difference here is that environmental organizations do make a fuss over the salmon rivers, but with the exception of WWF are completely ignoring the Amazon development plans, and are not much more concerned about the planned dams in the Mekong.

Maybe a cynical view but I think they want to reduce exposure of habitat and species loss that result from constructing there own hydroelectric resources to the world consciousness to minimize opposition and the proposed rules are little more than a smokescreen intended to obscure the extent to which there are many planned hydro projects proposed on most every river system with a suitable dam site.

I'd say that is not a cynical view at all, merely a realistic one. These are multi-billion dollar projects, with symbiotic cooperation between the government and the developers, to the point that the Brazilian natural resource management organization, IBAMA, was gutted to keep it from stopping these projects. It would surprise me if all this - the total media blackout, the blanket export stop of most species, the laughable environmental impact study - is not part of a PR plan by the Brazilian government and the companies behind the project to avoid unfavorable publicity until the dams are fact.

Why all environmental organizations are playing along I do not know. Partly it seems they do not know, but partly I think they're presently so myopically focused on global warming that they're missing that guaranteed species loss today is worse than possible species loss tomorrow.

[apistomaster]

The dams planned for Amazonia are not really needed for rural electrification. The electricity is for the development of the major industries of mining, smelting and refining. Also for exploiting the petrol drilling, refining and pipeline pumping stations.
So in addition to the direct effects of damming the rivers on the fisheries, there will be more deforestation and huge open pit mining operations. The temperate boreal forests are less effected by these industries but the ecosystem of Amazonia is far more delicate and easier to disrupt.
Global warming is a big threat since according to recent projections a four centigrade rise in global temperatures will lead to the loss of the rain forest and the formation of vast Amazonian savannas. This could occur in as little as 50 years.

[Janne]

I have been told by my wholesaler that ALL Queen Arabesque/King Tiger/333 types are now banned from exportation out of Brazil. Does anyone have any info saying the same thing or oposing it?

You was right, what has happen in Brazil is that Ibama have got a new "chief" and from now on they have decided to only allowe the species that are on the positive list created 2006. Since no Hypancistrus species are in that list they are all forbidden to export, all Pseudacanthicus species except P. leopardus is also forbidden. These are still allowed to be exported, Baryancistrus sp, Oligancistrus sp, Peckoltia sp and Hypostomus sp. Exporters in Brazil is not happy even that these species not was allowed before but exported "legal" with Ibamas aproving, they apply the harder rules only 5 months before they will introduce the new positive list instead to wait and give the exporters some time for preparing for the upcoming changes. Ibama is making inspections at the exporters and if they find species not on the list the exporters get a high penalty for breaking the laws....some may take the risk because they maybe not have any other possibility to survive now when the US dollar is so weak, the timing is really bad.

Probably many of these species forbidden now will be allowed in the new positive list, but for the exporters and lots of local fishermen it's a financial crisis under the time they cant sell these fishes.

Janne

[racoll]

How did they reach these decisions Janne?

Did they base it on research?

Why Hypancistrus and Pseudacanthicus no, and Baryancistrus, Peckoltia yes

[Janne]

How did they reach these decisions Janne?

I have no idea more then speculations, new people in the top of Ibama and the need to show more "power" from this department.

Did they base it on research?

No, they based this on the positive list of allowed species to be exported.

Why Hypancistrus and Pseudacanthicus no, and Baryancistrus, Peckoltia yes

Because there are no Hypancistrus species in the positive list and only one Pseudacanthicus species is represented in the positive list...P. leopardus. Baryancistrus sp and Peckoltia sp are in the positive list, no researches behind any of the genus or species have been made.

Janne

[racoll]

Because there are no Hypancistrus species in the positive list and only one Pseudacanthicus species is represented in the positive list...P. leopardus. Baryancistrus sp and Peckoltia sp are in the positive list, no researches behind any of the genus or species have been made.

Thanks Janne.

So basically nobody knows why species x is on the positive list and species y is not on the positive list (apart from the people who made the decisions of course).

I'm not liking the way the hobby is headed at the moment, with imports of 350 species including Puntius, Labeo, snakeheads, many gouramis and spiny eels likely to be banned in the UK.

The quality of tank raised fish gets worse every day, and hybrid Synodontis outnumber real fish 10:1.

Now the largest exporter of Amazonian fish bans some of our favourite loricariid genera.

[Matien]

Hi,
Trying to find this now falous list in english, I found this article (I know it is already a couple of years old) :
http://www.tropicalfishfinder.co.uk/art ... .asp?id=21

There is a link in it to one of the positive list (I do not know if it was the last one) and there is one explaination of the evolution of the situation in the last years.

If somebody can read portugese (i don't), it may have more accurate news on the Ibama website : http://www.ibama.gov.br/

see you,
Matien