Ancistrus in planted tank

[fishyio]

Hello this is my first post so forgive my lack of knowledge - I would welcome some advice. I have a male Bristlenose Ancistrus. He is about eight years old and about 125mm long.

We got him originally because we had a brown algae problem which he sorted in about 24 hours despite his tiny size at the time. Since then he has become the elder statesman of the tank and resides happily in a slate cave I made for him. (I wish in hindsight we'd ignored the LFS and bought a female for company.)

Recently we have planted the tank up, and to improve things I have got a CO2 injection system operating, for 10 hours a day, with half hour offset sync with the lights.

I have noticed that as the CO2 level increases over the day he starts looking a bit tired and breathless, although all the other fish seem fine. The pH goes down to about 6.6 at its very lowest combined with a kh of 4.5. I am aiming at 30ppm CO2, and the plants seem to grow well at this level.

When the CO2 lowers again he seems fine again, but I am a bit concerned he's not happy. I read on the FAQ that catfish generally don't do well in a planted tank because they don't like the CO2, but that the ancistrus was OK. Is it that this advice only applies up to a point?

I have started throttling back the CO2 and although he seems happier the plants aren't quite so vibrant. Is there anything that would help, eg running air from a pump to an airstone next his cave? He mostly stays in there most of the day and mooches about the tank mostly in the dark, has done for years, before the CO2.

Other thing that struck me was how long do they live-ie is it just that he's old and a bit delicate? I think I'd rather keep him happy and struggle with the plants but I just wondered if anyone had had this problem and solved it.


Stats: 85 litres water volume
pH 7.6 lowering by day to about 6.7, 6.6 minimum.
Tap contains 2.5 ppm phosphate,20 ppm nitrate,
gh is 12d, kh 4.5d, temp 25degC. In tank filtration.

Zero NH4 as measured on hobby type kits. 50% weekly water change.

Flake food am, frozen pm. Other fish 3 mollies, 2 small indian gouramies, 6 neons and a couple of botia striata, all these others seem fine.


Thanks for any advice!

[Bas Pels]

I have noticed that as the CO2 level increases over the day he starts looking a bit tired and breathless, although all the other fish seem fine. The pH goes down to about 6.6 at its very lowest combined with a kh of 4.5. I am aiming at 30ppm CO2, and the plants seem to grow well at this level.

Atlhough not generally accepted in the hobby, and certainly not by those who insist on heavily planted tanks, carbon dioxide is harmfull for fishes.

In nature, this gas dissolves everywhere in the same quantity, because it is found in the same concentration in the air.

The people who insit on haevily planted tanks have found that the plants grow faster when CO2 is added. However, CO2 is excreted by the fishes, and thus 'pushes back'furhter CO2 excretions by the fishes.

Many catfishes can breath air, bus as CO2 does dissolve very, very well, it is hard to excrete it into the air (air breathing animals, such as humans, have an CO2 concentraiton in their blood which would kill any fish) so these catfishes all excrete it into the water.

Thus, thinking about it, catfishes are prone tobe much more sensitive for CO2 additions than other fishes.

Obviously, I don't add this poison to my tanks. I cant complain about palnt growth, in the planted tanks, that is

[hfjacinto]

I have a densely planted tank with 4 pleco's. 2 of them ancisctrus. I don't use CO2, but I never had an issue with plant growth. What I do is fertilize the substrate on a monthly basis and dose the water 2 to 3 times a week with plant supplements. Plants grow really well, although during winter there is always some slow down in growth. Maybe something to do with the amount of sunlight in the house.

I had an issue with another tank in that I was using a chlorine remover which would bind with the iron I was dosing and the plants wouldn't get enough iron. Once I figured it out, I started aging the water which removes the chlorine and the plants started growing again.

Sorry I couldn't help with your specific issue.

[apistomaster]

I am not going to pretend to be an expert on the CO2 supplemented planted tank but something does not make sense to me.
It seems to me that for as much buffering capacityy as your water has that the swing in pH is very high unless your CO2 isn't being shut off at light out.

The actual pH is probably not really the problem. I have a feeling that your CO2 levels are higher than indicated by the tests. If anything the Ancistrus should be most comfortable during the day when dissolved O2 levels presumably peak.
Even so, CO2 content can still stress or kill in the presence of saturated dissolved O2 levels.
Try to find a better CO2 test procedure/product or in some way make sure your readings are accurate. Are you by any chance using "the chart method" of dissolved CO2 measurement based on alkalinity/pH tests?
I think your plants would adjust to a lower CO2 setting given some time and their growth would still be excellent after they acclimate to the new, lower levels.
I would recommend that you run an airstone vigrously on a timer so it comes on an hour before lights out and off an hour after lights on.

The Bushynose may be showing signs of age. Of that I cannot say for sure because I have never owned one that long. On the whole, these plecos can live a long time. I owned a Liposarcus pardalis for 18 years and it died due to an accident at a length of 17-1/2 inches. Who knows how much longer it could have lived?
Different fish but you get the idea.

[WhitePine]

I keep lots of planted tanks with and w/o co2. I don't see the ph swing or the amount of co2 you are keeping a problem for the Ancistrus. I have kept bushys in higher light/co2 tanks than what you are stating with no ill effects. If the co2 comes on with the lights, the o2 levels will increase as the plants start giving o2 off.
Did you change any thing else? Adjust your light time or added more/different bulbs? I agree with apistomaster, if you want you could run an small airstone. You also state "pH 7.6 lowering by day to about 6.7, 6.6 minimum." what is the lowest the ph really goes? If your kh is around 4.5 and the ph gets below 6, then you might have a problem.
Check this link.

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

[cristi_ionescu_79]

Hi,
one question : Is it OK to have this variations of PH (every day)? from 7.6 to 6.6 .....

[apistomaster]

I think a one unit of pH difference in Co2 supplied planted tanks is not unusual nor harmful as long as the fish and plants are healthy and there are no serious problems like over stocking of fish.

It could be a problem in an aquarium simulating extreme blackwater environment and the pH target is very low, 4.0 for example. This is not an evironment where aquatic plants are normally found so the only reason I can think of for using CO2 would be to keep the pH that low. This would be an environment where Altum Angels, Heckel Discus or some Rasboras, wild Bettas and chocolate gouramis would be found. I don't think many of our ornamental catfish are typically found in this type of habitat but I sure there are exceptions to that I am unaware of. Few fish would do well if the pH dropped from 4.0 to 3.0.
Also because aquatic plants are not going to be present they would not be there to become CO2 producers causing a night time drop as descibed for the heavily plant tank. The pH tends to be stable except if metabolic wastes from the fish or decaying matter are allowed to accumulate. Very regular water changes and careful feeding should prevent a crash in pH but this is a zone few fish or aquarists find necessary to permanently create.

[Barbie]

On the aging of bristlenose, I have a pair of regular brown bristlenose that a friend in Iowa gave me in 1999. They have since been moved from Kansas City, to Anchorage, and back down to Spokane and are still with me in a 75 gallon tank in my living room. I also have the original spawning male Albino Ancistrus that I purchased from Arizona and also moved around the country. The albino is still happily raising spawns as often as the females are interested and the standards are still cleaning algae in one of my cichlid tanks. I know people who have kept them for upwards of 15 years, but I'm not sure exactly what their expected lifespan will be in the cushy conditions we try to provide.

Have you considered the addition of a pH controller for your CO2 unit? Then you could more closely monitor the pH levels and maximize the saturation at the peak uptake point for the plants. Just a thought ;).

Barbie

[WhitePine]

While collecting with Shane in Colombia, I watched a little stream grow in intensity from a slow meander to a small torrent. This happend in the afternoon right after the daily rainstorm. I would imagine that the ph swing was a degree or two after the rain water came through.

[apistomaster]

In all my responses to our question I made the assumption that you were using a pH controller as Barbie suggested you do. To my way of thinking a CO2 system is incomplete without one although I reaize many aquarists do not use one. I think if you are going to all the expense of a CO2 system and the expensive lighting system it is false economy to not include a pH controller too, IMO.

In the specialized case of the extreme blackwater low pH environment is would not be optional as there is no other way to control the pH without a pH controller.

I understand that you are not trying to create a plantless blackwater environment. It was just an example.

[fishyio]

Wow can I say thanks to everyone for their comments and advice, plenty to think about.

As you surmised apistomaster I am using the pH and KH method of calculating the CO2. I am using a drop checker device to give me a continuous pH reading, albeit with a built in delay, but I have been doing pH tests at various times throughout the day to make sure this is OK. I have gone against a pH controller thus far because a number of people on the plant forums say they are prone to problems of accuracy and malfunction and cause more problems than they solve, although like everything in this hobby I'm sure there are legions of people who swear by themjavascript:emoticon(':?')
Confused. Obviously a ph controller which was accurate and reliable would be more consistent, and thus possibly safer, so I may have a look into that. As you say apistomaster it's more likely to be the CO2 level than the pH, so a more accurate KH reading would be a help.

I may have misled people a bit while posting late at night, the 7.6 ph is the water out of the tap, I must confess I haven't measured it in the middle of the night, when the CO2 is off (and I'm asleepjavascript:emoticon(':)')
Smile, but by morning it's certainly higher than 7 if not all the way to 7.6 again. And the Ancistrus is quite perky then, it's really more the end of the day when the CO2 has been running a while that he goes a bit flaky. When the CO2 goes off he's back to normal as far as I can tell within 30 mins, or an hour tops.

My main confusion in all this was I guess, why is the Ancistrus the only fish showing any signs of distress when all the other occupants are swimming about quite happily courting,feeding,pooing etc? I guess Bas Pels has answered that part in his reply.

I think I will knock back the CO2 a little way and keep him happy and look into a more accurate CO2 measuring/controller system. Thanks again everyone for the very helpful advice.

[fishyio]

Hmm looks like I messed up on the Smileys there, oops.

[apistomaster]

Hey fishio,
Let's start this over from scratch. Even if we do have brains the size of a planet our advise is only as accurate as the information provided. Like the adage goes, "garbage in, garbage out." OK?

Figure out what your priorities are.
If you are wanting to be a full fledged aquatic gardener the fish are just the trimmings.

Very much like a reef tank where Corals are the main feature, the fish come in second. You keep fewer fish in both types of aquariums and do what is best for the Coral or aquatic plants and then work in a few fish,

Assuming you invested in plants and the growing equipment you should add the pH controller. It can't possibly less reliable than doing it by the seat of your plants. Even if it gets out of calibration you fix it or compensate by the factor that let's you always know what the base line is. If your tapwater is high in buffering capacity it will take more CO2 to achieve a given pH value. So invest in a RO/DI unit so you can lower the baseline buffering capacity target by dilution of the water with pure water. This will let you get the values you want to work with and use less CO2 to get there. That should keep the CO2 at a safe level for fish and the plants won't work as hard to get the CO2 they need.
I think your problems will go away if you take this approach.
Buy a school of rummynose tetras. They are very good indicators that things are in perfect harmony or not.
Then forget about all the other fishes' problems as they will be a diseases which are a different issue and not an environmental problem. Things like ich also are quick to affect rummy nose tetras. They are the perfect canaries for your mine. No planted tank is complete without them.
You need them.

All of the above is predicated on the assumption that you are sticking to a regular water change regime, don't have too many fish and aren't over feeding. Top off all evaporation losses with straight RO/DI water.
Make up replacement water for water changes to match whatever parameters you have made your standard.
The easiest way to make your new standard water is to calculate the ratio of untreated tap water/RO water= Standard water. Don't chase things like pH and hardness with expensive additives.
Fertilizers: Unless you are very obsessive-compulsive pretend that liquid fertilizers don't exist. You are going to just be flushing those dollars down the drain with each water change. Just use substrate fertilizers. My advice to you is to only use Nutrifin Plant Grow sticks. They last almost a year. Use one stick for every 100 sq inches of bottom area. in addition, use an extra stick under each major show plant. They release enough to supply the water column with all the necessary nutrients.
You are now on autopilot.

[hfjacinto]

Apistomaster,

I find your post helpful, but I never had much success with the plants until I started using the liquid fertilizer. Even using the substate root fertilizer (I use Seacham Flourish tabs, I used to use Crypto Dunger but haven't been able to find it in a long time) the plants would grow for a while and then slowly die back.

I also used to use a dechlorinater that I believe was binding with the iron in the fertilizer which probably didn't help the plants.

I went to an LFS and he recommended kent botanicals for plant care (such as Phosphate, Iron Supplement and Micronutrients) and after experimenting with various concetrations, I was able to get healthy plant growth using 1 cap full of phosphate and 2 capfuls of Iron and Micronutrients. This combinatoion brings out the best plant growth in my aquariums. I found that I didn't have to use kent iron as other company products work as well. Although I haven't found any other company that makes phosphate.

Regarding the waste water. I only fertilize the 45 gallon and when I do the weekly 40% water change, I use the waste water for the houseplants and the vegetable garden (during the warmer months). I never need to purchase plant fertilizer.

[WhitePine]

If you are going to use ferts, I suggest you just by raw chemicals. Kno3, Po4, k2so4, MgCo3 and CSM+b are what you are looking for.

Check this site for all your needs. http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/

Much cheaper in the long run.

[apistomaster]

Hi Everone,
My intensions regarding regarding fishio's problem was to lay out some beginning point from which fishio would have a basic plan and foundation to establish a systymized approach to maintaining the planted tank already so well equipped to maximize plant plant growth but it seemed to me that it was out of balance. I also did not want to cause harm by making the first changes too complicated. Once implemented, over time some plants are going to better than others. I always believe that one should notice what plants seem to do well and which ones don't and then work with the types that do best in a particular set up
My recommendations , I thought, would produce the most bang by introducing the fewest variables. One can begin fine tuning from there.

All too often beginning planted tank aquarists buy many species of plants without not really knowing which will do well and which ones won't in their particular tank and set up.

It takes some time to learn how to grow plants and even more to know which combinations are best for your aquarium. We see beautiful photos of what can be done but rarely does one know the "green thumb factor" behind the scenes. There are years of study, experimentation, and fine tuning that is not conveyed
by a photo, list of equipment and species shown in the tank.

Eventually as we continue to gain more depth and experience we can try more ambitious projects and new plants. I think it is much like I said previously, there are similarities between the perfect aquatic garden tank and a well developed reef tank.
In both cases you start simple and grow into complexity. Much of this is the essence of the aquarist's growth within the hobby. Always building on the foundations layed back from our beginnings.

There is way to much to address in a post behind the creation of a masterpiece aquatic garden aquarium.
That is why it takes two books and about $100 dollars to buy those written by Christine Kasselmann. Even this is just a beginning point.

If you are planning to get deeply involved in this aspect of the hobby you have to pay your dues and expend some effort to learn about the biology, ecology and chemistry involved. Try to remember also that there is no one way to accomplish the desired ends. The fact is there as as many ways to get there as there are aquarists willing to try.

So absorb evrything you can, try what seems right, and learn by doing.



Every planted tank is different, even within just one fishroom. Add to that everyone has different water around the country. We all use different bands of additive from water conditioners to fertilizers.

[fishyio]

Thanks to everyone who has replied, especially apistomaster for taking time out to offer such comprehensive answers. I recognise exactly the process you describe. I started about 8 years ago wanting a few fish to amuse the children, and the LFS said, "well you can have plastic plants for decoration or there's these real ones which are more natural, here's some fertiliser".

Over the years I have done a fair bit of reading foruming and asking about and tried quite a few set ups within the tank with no plants, and less or more plants depending. The "problem" has been that we need or have 'not enough light' or 'too much light', or 'different light spectrum' then 'ah it's your sand substrate' or the 'gravel substrate' 'no you need iron rich substrate'. 'Less plants', 'more plants' And of course 'algae poison' (didn't buy that one) 'algae eaters', 'phosphate removers', then 'not enough phosphates', 'liquid ferts', 'you need solid ferts', 'no you need dry dose chemicals'. 'Too much surface agitation', 'not enough surface agitation' and so on and so on.

All the advice I have followed has been given in good faith in a spirit of helping a fellow "aquarist" by enthusiasts, experts and LFS staff based on what they have found to be true for them, and I am grateful to each and everyone of them.

What I can say is that this latest set up with the CO2 has been the first one which has grown nice plants, with nice happy fish [except you know who], and not been buried in various types of algae within a few weeks. I dose with dry ferts to get the individual levels where I need them, although the tap is so full of NO3 and PO4 that apart from iron+traces I only need to add a few bits and pieces to get the potassium and magnesium straightened out on the odd occasion. I do a weekly 50 % change

So I completely agree with you that eventually after a few years of bashing your head against it, you find out what works for you in your tank with your water and can finally enjoy looking at your fish again. I feel I am nearly there at the moment, and guess it's time to get the money out (again) for a pH controller and then maybe a RO machine if that's what it takes. Maybe I can offer some advice to someone myself then!!

I am very grateful for everyone taking the time to respond, this is a great forum. Might get a Catfish room when I have sorted this tank out!! Thanks again

[hfjacinto]

Whitepine,

Thanks for the website. I will probably buy the phosphate. The only issue is going to be how much dilution will I need to bring it to a comparable Kent solution.

Apito is totally right, the key to plnated tanks is careful trial and error.

I used to live in a town with a pH of 6.8 and very soft water (40 degrees hardness). I could grow all type of Amazons swords from micros to red swords like you couldn't believe. I had to keep dividing and giving them away to friends. I was even growing banana plants until they would take over the aquarium.

I moved to a town with hard water and all my plants started dieing (same regiment, same water changes, same fish) but the water was hard with a PH of 7.8. I decided to change the water chemistry. RO water and peat to bring the PH (gradually) back to 6.8. Guess what whatever didn't die, died now. I them decided to try different plants until I found I could grow Anubia, ferns and water sprite. I then get a larger tank and everything started dieing again.

Now I have a densly planted tank with Valiseria Gigante, Cryptocorns, Anubia and all are growing well. Until summer I was growing so much elodea that I gave away over 20 bags of the stuff. Now its dieing back in the large tank and growing like weeds in the 10 gallon and the outdoor pond. Same water but different set-ups.

[hfjacinto]

Even with the change in water chemistry the fish adapted really well. I've always had the cory anadeus and the 4 pleco's, I just went from having angels as the show fish to rainbows now. Although I had an incident with a filter (read the dumb mistakes forum) that caused an ammonia spike and killed almost all my rainbows, I am now thinking of a shoal of congos. I know they are from different biotopes.

[Birger]

I am now thinking of a shoal of congos

hfjacinto,I have a shoal of congo tetra's(Phenacogrammas interruptus) A group of ten that do a good job of keeping plants trimmed back especially new anubias shoots,it is to the point of considering replacing them.
Great fish just this one problem.

Birger

[apistomaster]

Hi All,

I had a beautiful shoal of about 16 Congo Tetras in a 40 gallon tank four feet long. It was a very good "race way" style well suited for Congos. I had it planted with more Echinodorus rather than Aubias but they never ate my plants. I was a planted tank with plenty of swimming space. I had low growing Crpts that covered the open water swimming area.

I was also breeding these Congos on purpose but they spawned every morning in their dispaly tank.Every morning the tank received a few hours of the morning sun and the diplays and spawning would begin in the sparkling sunlight their colors are hard to decribe.

They were heavily fed earthworms, both live small ones and chpped rinsed large worms. They also would eat a lot of algae wafers each day. I had a fair sized algae eating pleco of one of the dark grey with back spots and large dorsal sailfin. I keep it well fed with alae wafers and the Congos attacked the wafers as well as the did the live or fresh chopped earthworms

That was the last I have kept Congo Tetras but I have had them many times prior to the times I described the above project but I have never had them turn on my plants.

I guess it's just anothe instance where fish behavior varies from the generally observed behaviors?

[Birger]

I guess it's just anothe instance where fish behavior varies from the generally observed behaviors?

You could just dismiss it like that but there is usually a reason for different behavior,just conjecture here but I think it has more to do with where the plants are from as they do not seem to pay to much attention to the asian plants in the same tank except for spawning purposes, they always spawn into the same batch of java fern.African plants taste better maybe, who knows....I haven't gotten around to making a salad out of them yet.

Sorry to the others as this is off the original topic

Birger

[apistomaster]

We need to shift this discussion over to Tank Talk.

[WhitePine]

Whitepine,

Thanks for the website. I will probably buy the phosphate. The only issue is going to be how much dilution will I need to bring it to a comparable Kent solution.

The link I provided has a fert calculator or check out the Fertilator on aquaticplantcentral.net. You might have to be a member to check out the Fertilator.