Could anyone sex my L260s?

[LitosCBR]

Hello to everybody!

Could you help me sexing my L260s?

A group picture:

#1 (quite nice odontal growing):



#2:

#3:

#4:


And 3 additional 2.5-cm QAs (unfortunately one died):

Central one:

Left-hand one:

Right-hand one:


Carlos

[LitosCBR]

Be careful! Some of you sexed some of them in the past!

(Yann, you said some time ago there were L318 and not L260)

[Plecofanatic1989]

Ok. I'm definitely not an expert on sexing fish. But from what I have learned, and I could be very very wrong, #1&2 are, IMO, definitely female. Very gravid looking; wide at the dorsal fin instead of pectorals. #3 is IMO a definite male. Differently shaped head, widest at pectoral fins. #4 IMO, is probably a female, looking at head shape compared to the male to the right and i percieve the girth around the dorsal.
As I mentioned I could be very wrong, I am an amateur. We'll see what the experts have to say.
Josh

[LitosCBR]

Thank you very much, Plecofanatic. Your opinion coincides with mine's (however, let's wait for the experts). This could explain why I have kept #1 and #2 for a couple of years without any spawning activity... maybe once #3 reaches the sexual maturity...

What about the other three little QA?

[racoll]

(Yann, you said some time ago there were L318 and not L260)

Hypancistrus sp. can all look very similar when young

I would say these fish are

Hypancistrus sp(l411)

rather than

Hypancistrus sp(l260)

, due to the larger size, colour and denser pattern of reticulations.

[LitosCBR]

I would say these fish are

Hypancistrus sp(l411)

rather than

Hypancistrus sp(l260)

, due to the larger size, colour and denser pattern of reticulations.

That's right, Yann said 'Monte Dourado'. I don't know if at the time if I wrongly attributed L318 instead of L411...

[drpleco]

I agree with that ID. I used to have groups of both (bought all as L260) and the 411's have a tighter pattern with less contrast. I also bought a pair of 318's online and they turned out to be 411, too. I've since sold everything but the real queens.

For sexing, look to the cheeks and pectorals. Males will have noticeably swollen cheeks with very long odontodes. That's for 260's, but I imagine that it's similar for 411's. You'll have to wait for maturity to see that, though.

Sorry you have the wrong fish! They're still nice, just a little uglier than 260's, IMO.

[LitosCBR]

For sexing, look to the cheeks and pectorals. Males will have noticeably swollen cheeks with very long odontodes. That's for 260's, but I imagine that it's similar for 411's. You'll have to wait for maturity to see that, though.

According to that #1 could be a male and #2 is a female...

Sorry you have the wrong fish! They're still nice, just a little uglier than 260's, IMO.

I agree with you. Perhaps in my next life!

[looser]

Hello,

I see 2 fat male and some smaler ones (to young) of L411

Kind regard Michael

[apistomaster]

I am not great at sexing L260. I sometimes feel I have all females because their bellies are so white and at other times, based on behaviors and morphology, I think I have a mixed group.

I too, had a large group of L411 that I bought as either L260 or L66 and got rid of them because their markings are too indistinct and overall, not as attractive as L260. They seem to be a larger species to me than L260.

[pramirez]

Hi Litos. Hola Litos.

Nice to meet you here. Que gusto leerte por aqui.
I thinck they are L260. Not sure but ... Creo que son L260...
The n1 is a male and the n2 looks like female. El 1 es macho y el 2 parece hembra.
Those other joungster don't have distintictives for sexing them. A los peques no les veo signos claros.
I'm breeding L262 and they don't begun until I add a second pair. Yo crió L262 y no conseguí la primera puesta hasta que introduje una segunda.
All of them look healthy and soon you'll have one surprise. Se les ve sanotes y verás como pronto tienes buenas noticias.

Regards. Un saludo.

[LitosCBR]

although everyone seems to be ok in identifying them as L411, I see that sexing is not an easy problem...
Plecofanatic: 1#F; 2#F; 3#M; 4#F;
Looser: 1#M; 2#M; 3#?; 4#?;
Pramirez: 1#M; 2#F; 3#?; 4#?;
so no coincidences!
more participants left?

Litos

PS: Pramirez, un saludo, ¡qué pequeño es el mundo! ¿has enseñado ya tus L262?

[Mike_Noren]

For what it's worth, the "pure white belly" vs "mottled belly" thing turned out to be accurate for my six L260 (five females one male), with my females looking much like this http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/im ... ge_id=6919 , but the consensus among other keepers was that it is not a 100% reliable character. And if that's Monte Dourado, then maybe that rule doesn't hold at all.

Anyway, FWIW, both #1 and #2 sure look female to me, despite both having what I'd consider a mottled belly.


EDIT: looking at the pictures again, it seems to me as if #1 and #2 at least have much less pigmentation on the belly than the more male-looking #3, so maybe the rule still sortof works for Monte Dourado.

[Barbie]

In my opinion, they are all female but #3. It's quite hard to tell from the pictures you posted though. If you could take individual pictures from above and link us to them at a size to actually see some detail it would be helpful. I agree that they are definitely L411, not L260. There are some pictures of L260 fry in the CoTM article I did to illustrate the difference in the coloration. The male in your group is young enough it will be a good while before you're going to need to worry about spawning. Too bad you aren't closer, I have a trio of these fish at the store right now, hehe.

Barbie

[LitosCBR]

Plecofanatic: 1#F; 2#F; 3#M; 4#F;
Looser: 1#M; 2#M; 3#?; 4#?;
Pramirez: 1#M; 2#F; 3#?; 4#?;
Mike_Noren: 1#F; 2#F; 3#M; 4#?;
Barbie: 1#F; 2#F; 3#M; 4#F;

Barbie, it’s just an 8500 km walk to Spokane, maybe I could better go to Monte Dourado ;)

On the other hand, could a dominant female develop secondary sex characteristics (classical cominant male marks) in an aquarium without any male? I'm referring to #1: from the body shape I think it is a female, but it is quite hairy (but maybe a 4 year male would be definitely more hairy).

Carlos

[pramirez]

Hi LitosCBR.

With the Berbie's opinión I had revised your pics and now you can be sure you have L411's 1F, 2F, 3M, 4F. She allway has reason so wait for your male to be ready.
As you pointed the pectorals of the 2nd individual make me get wrong. But her body and head sharpes are of a female (not her belly, like othes saw, a fat male can has this rounded form).
Barbie, I know you had said before and wrote about, but can you sow me why they're not stressed L260? Thank you.
Those L numbers had been got with years of diference, all of them like L260. It could be a wonderful coincidence, isn't it?

regards.

[Barbie]

Stressed L260 still show the rich black base coloration, just with faded barring on them. These guys are totally faded and the lines don't look right. I'm terrible at explaining the differences, but getting better at recognizing them at least.

The larger female that is "hairy" is nowhere near as spikey as my mature male L260. I've had some quite hairy specimens in different Hypancistrus as they've aged and asserted dominance in tanks. IMO, the shape of the head shows a definite female. As I mentioned, better pictures with more detail would make it more certain, but that's my best guesstimate ;).

Barbie

[looser]

L411's 1F, 2F, 3M, 4F. regards.

Hello,

It’s interesting. You can sex a 2,5 cm Hypancistrus .

1 other Idea to this uncommon collared Hyps. . Hybrides!


If I see the photo of the last 3 there is 1 with very big eyes and a deformated body. These are no wild coughs. 1 more point for the hybrid theory.

The easiest way is to make photos after a few days in the tank. The stress coloration must be away and we can see more about the real coloration .

Regard Michael

[Barbie]

You might reread the post, the 2.5 cm fish were not the same ones as in the top picture, but another 3 fish. Why assume they're hybrids when they fit the profile for L411?

Barbie

[LitosCBR]

Thanks again to everybody!

Regarding individual procedence:
#1 was acquired in the Valencian Fishkeeping Society in Feb 2005, it was imported at the time as 'Hypancistrus Queen arabesque II' (I think then L-list did not reach 4xx!!). It was yet a young adult (not with its current size, but something intermediate between #2 and #3). Here one picture took in Sept2005:

#2 was obtained in another fish store also in Feb 2005, it was included in a group of otocinclus (1.5 EUR/each ). It was quite small then; here some old photographs (feb2005):


Here some pictures of #1 and #2 in Dec2005 (the bowl is the same):


(then in a PCF post, Barbie thought #1 was female and #2 male -now I'm sure it was too early to know it-, but pureplecs thought at a glance they could be two females )
I think #1 and #2 are wild caught.

#3 and #4 were bought to a breeder in Madrid (ES) in Jun2007. Last three (not numbered) are also from this breeder and I got them in Jan2008 (so the last three and #3 and #4 are brothers).

According to my experience, at least I will need 1 or 2 years for #3 to get a reasonable size... I think that after these last 3 years it is not a so long wait

Regards,

Carlos

[Barbie]

If you look in the pics from a few years ago, you can see what a difference fish #2 has made in the ratio of fin size to body size. This is just one of the reasons that I said better pictures of the head structure would get you a more accurate guesstimate ;).

My zebra colony was judged to be almost all male, all female looking for a male, and everything in between. Of the 11 fish, 3 were male, 6 were female and there's 1 I'm still not sure what it wants to be when it grows up ;). That's with fish in a tank that I can sit and watch. Anytime you're trying to determine sex with pictures you're going to run a higher risk of being wrong.

Do either of the larger fish claim caves? Do they have odontodes that lay outside the operculum? Has there been any squabbling for dominance? These are also all factors that could help be confident of the answers.

Barbie

[LitosCBR]

I completely agree with you Barbie (I was joking, not claiming -I know that you have a sharp eye for sexing Hyps., nice guesstimates). This is a complicated bussness: in fact sometimes I thought all of them were males, sometimes all females, sometimes a mixed group… at this time I think they are FFMF (before you and pureplecs said it, so I'm quite convinced now), but my point of view also changes from time to time.

I think that in 2006-07 #2 has grown a lot and some feeding problems (maybe parasites also) have been solutioned. For 15 months I didn't see the fish, and when I moved to another aquario in Sept2007 I was surprised about the size (I confused with #1 for some minutes until I saw the other one!).

Concerning the caves, #1 and #2 sometimes are in a cave, and sometimes no, being #1 the one who spends more time in the cave. They also change of cave. I have not seen any very social/unsocial behavior. When #2 was smaller, it avoided #1 (but #1 did not persecuted #2); now it seems they ignore each other (but sometimes they are in the same corner of the aquarium).

#1 has visible odontes in the opercula, but I think that a 4 year dominant male would have in higher extent. In #2 it is only short odontes.

Carlos

[Mod edit: Removed clog-tags around Barbie - not sure what was meant - feel free to edit correct tags if you wish --Mats]

[Mike_Noren]

The fish in the net is fish #2 as young?
I can see why the store thought it was an L260.

[LitosCBR]

The fish in the net is fish #2 as young?
I can see why the store thought it was an L260.

Yes, it is. And #3 and #4 inside the tank look like true L260, with lot of black and white contrast (specially in the case of #3, another male sign?). But depending on the light conditions, stress and other unknown (for me) parameters they lost most of contrast. I think their black parts are always paler than those of the true L260, and also have less contrast, and more differences appear when aging.

Carlos

[looser]

You might reread the post, the 2.5 cm fish were not the same ones as in the top picture, but another 3 fish. Why assume they're hybrids when they fit the profile for L411?

Barbie

Oh,

sorry then this are 7 Fish .

In my opinion the coloration is not like the real L411. It is something between the L260 and L411. I can show you some Fotos next weak. L-Welse.com is down until Friday.

For sure I know that some breeders mix the L260 male with the L411 female to have bigger spawn quantity’s

Regards Michael

PS: sorry for my bad english

[LitosCBR]

In my opinion the coloration is not like the real L411. It is something between the L260 and L411. I can show you some Fotos next weak. L-Welse.com is down until Friday.

In fact, first question is:
1.- are #1 and #2 of the same species/kind...
2.- I'm sure that #3, #4 and the other three are brothers, but are they of the same species than #1 and/or #2?

It is noticeable that I got the fishes three different towns in Spain (Valencia, Alzira and Madrid) and along several years.

For sure I know that some breeders mix the L260 male with the L411 female to have bigger spawn quantity’s

Interesting issue, is the clutch size very different?
On the other hand, imports number and quality in Spain is not very high... In the case of the last 5 individuals, which are from a local breeder, I can imagine more problems getting individuals from the same species (or lack of knowledge about the real procedence) than mixing them for economical reasons.

Carlos

[pramirez]

Hi LitosCBR.

Looser your english is better than mine .
If you can breed L411 or L260 why are anybody going to hibrid them Are those hibrids more expansive?
Litos I know your Madrid breeder and he bought them like L260 Queen Arabesque.
There are a gereralized confusion. So if your Lorys came from diferent places, all of them are "L260" and result you get a group of L411. Fantastic coincidence!
Barbie has experiece on in these sp. and don't use to let us down.

regards.

[looser]

Hello Pramirez,

the Hybrids are not better or more beautiful. The only point is, that the clutch of the L260 females are much smaller then of the L411 and the coloration of the L260 male wins the recognition. The result is a Hypancistrus Hybrid with an coloration very near to the real L260.

Because of this I am very carefully to say it is an real L260, when the coloration is not perfect to the original shown L411 in the DATZ.

Regards Michael