L-046 tried smuggled out of Brazil

[Erlend D Bertelsen]

According to IBAMA`s homeside someone tried to ship out HZ from Santarém 25/07/08. Only in Portuguese, but link her.

[Erlend D Bertelsen]

Video

[pramirez]

Hi Erlend.


Sad, very sad.

[drpleco]

I copies and pasted the text of the artivle into google translator (http://translate.google.com/translate_t?sl=pt&tl=en) and it gave me this:

Santarem (25/07/2008) - The IBAMA yesterday seized a large quantity of ornamental fish at the airport in Santarem / PA. The number of animals was estimated at over one thousand. The documentation for the transport of fish was not presented, nor is no information on their origin. Some species are threatened with extinction seized, as the zebra acari (Hypancistrus zebra), endemic in the basin of Xingu, whose marketing is prohibited. The person responsible for illegal cargo was autuado and will be notified as soon as the fish are counted and identified all species, which is essential for calculating the value of the fine.

The fish were packed in more than 50 isopores that would be shipped to Sao Paulo when they were seized. Due to inadequate transportation, the inability to return the animals to their habitat in a timely fashion and all procedures of technical analysis for the release, several of the animals died and will be incorporated into the zoological collections of institutes of education and science to be used in environmental education and research.

The donation will be held tomorrow (26) at the headquarters of IBAMA in Buenos Aires (Avenida Tapajos 2267) between 9 and 11am in the morning. It is important that educators and researchers interested lead pots with glass lid and alcohol 70%, for the storage of fish, and label or esparadrapo to note the names of animals. The idea is available for schools and institutions like a small collection of ornamental fish in the region to promote the knowledge of species and strengthen the debate on the implications of environmental crimes.

It is important to note that this environmental crime causes ecological damage by impairing the food chain and aquatic ecosystems, as well as economic damage, harm to the activities of ecological tourism in the region.

[taksan]

LOL what a joke ..... anything IBAMA bans from export is available in Peru.
Its a absurd situation.
They ban exporting a few fish while they support logging,mining and dams that destroy entire biotopes.
Brazil can go **** itself ...
Anyone can order WC Zebs, Black rays and anything else they feel they might like out of Peru while Brazil misses out and burns more Jungle.....

[mare bedrum]

Sorry this has to be my first post, looong time lurker but pissed today.
Mmm, bravo. Just what I was thinking yesterday when I read it. Now what, you just going to leave them in the sun waiting for the press conference and the big media splash, don't you? Alright, dead specimens available today...for free! Sign me in!
Super, keep churning out dams and genetically engineered soja Brazil, you're doing juuuust fine.
And by the way taksan is right, wc zebbies not even that expensive were finding their way out of the Xingu this past summer. Hmm really cheap ones actually.
Great site and thanks for the info nevertheless, Erlend.

[Bas Pels]

I'm certain Brasil customs will end up with 100 % dead fishes - if only because the exporter will be fined heavier. And thus the achievement of the brave Brasis customs officers will be much greater

[apistomaster]

As pathetic as this incident was it is no different than what any other fish and wildlife agency does in any other country.
Th grandstanding, death of the fish are all normal behavior for any law enforcement agency when very it scores a "great victory' against the criminal element. From zebra plecos to posing over the shot up body of Pablo Escobar like a dead big game animal it is always the same. It is also always a fraction of of percent of those who are successful smugglers. Most of those agents have accepted generous bribes to look the other way.
Just those who fail to pay tend to be "caught."

I think Brazil has it's collective head up their butts but no more so than any other country or agency.

[Yann]

Hi!!

I think the head of the IBAMA, exactly now which people accept the money to close their eyes...and these are gently replace by people who have a mind...
Not many export co in brasil are trying to send zebra... just a few are trying!!!
I won't blame much the export companies...I would blame all the customers around the world that keep asking 4 them...even if they know they are banned...
Really it is too bad the zebra is not on cites or red list...then customs officiers from other country would have to coperate ...and not only the export co would have problem but also the people who ordered these...a heavy fined, closing of buisness and some time in jail... I am sure that would make people think about ordering it again...

Cheers
Yann

[apistomaster]

The corruption of government officials in Latin America is legendary and is culturally well entrenched. Not going to change in a life time.

[Bas Pels]

Approximately 2 years back I felw from uruguay over Agentina home, with a lot of fishes

in Argentina customs stopepd me, and took away all my fishes. I was, however, allowed to continue my trip home.

Later on, I heard a few people in similar circumstances were arrested, or tried to bribe some officials, and were arrested for the attempted bribe. As I hardly speak any Spanish, I did not dare suggesting anything (let alone axpessing my gratitude), which appeared to be the best solution.

So, be carefull if you should choose to consider Apistomasters post as a suggestion to try

[Janne]

anything IBAMA bans from export is available in Peru. Anyone can order WC Zebs, Black rays and anything else they feel they might like out of Peru

Yes you can order them because they are in their stocklist's...but you will never recieve any because they dont have any. Remember one thing, IBAMA has not bann anything, these species have never been allowed to be caught for export...they have been exported illegal since they first discovered until today. Before when they didnt do their work...people had the right to judge them...now when they do their work as they should have done before...people judge them anyway. I am absolutely sure there are lots of pathetic persons even outside Brazil.

The corruption of government officials in Latin America is legendary and is culturally well entrenched. Not going to change in a life time.

It's little better today even if things goes little slower down there, but never try to smuggle or attempt to bribe any customer for a few fishes in Brazil...it will cost you a lot of money and you can consider your self "persona non grata" for the reast of your life in this country.

Janne

[taksan]

[Yes you can order them because they are in their stocklist's...but you will never recieve any because they dont have any.

Janne

Thats simply not true. I know of a shipment on WC Zeb's from Peru just last week and yesterday a shipment of 4 P14 Black Rays as well.

I checked the wholesaler and WC Zeb's are still available in quantity out of Peru as is pretty much everything that Brazil won't allow exported.

IBAMA's a joke .... Brazil has zero credibility in wildlife or fisheries management and eventually Brazilians will reap what they have been sowing for the past 300 years of wanton ecological destruction.

[Barbie]

You're arguing that they're being shipped from Peru? The point is that they aren't legal to export from Brazil, where the bulk of the fish used to be leaving from. It may take them a bit to seal up all of the holes in the system, but can you imagine patrolling that sort of border system? That would be like the US figuring a way to effectively restrict illegal immigration into the country from Mexico. It's a great little dream, but as long as there are unethical people willing to exploit circumstances, it will probably keep happening. Are they to be judged for making the effort or for "wanton destruction", I'm confused?

Don't get on too much of a high horse about Brazil making less than ecologically sound choices. There are very few countries out there that haven't made some serious mistakes along the way. Sheer size per capita makes Brazil a more rare case than most. You can point fingers all you'd like, but the consumer being willing to buy the animals they are restricting for export just drives that black market trade to new extremes. The fact that they are attempting to control it should be recognized as admirable, even knowing it may just be for their own selfish gains as prices climb. God forbid they actually benefit from the sales of the fish that live there, rather than everyone else doing it farther up the supply chain.

As Janne says, they aren't making these fish illegal to export, they are enforcing a list that's been in effect for years. The fact that people have been exploiting it and ignoring it all this time is their fault, but it looks like they're working to do something about it.

As someone who personally collects and works with many plecos, this will put a big crimp in my style, but will also encourage captive breeding efforts with more than just a few select species, IMO.

Barbie

[Mike_Noren]

Don't get on too much of a high horse about Brazil making less than ecologically sound choices. There are very few countries out there that haven't made some serious mistakes along the way. Sheer size per capita makes Brazil a more rare case than most.

On the other hand one should not make too much of Brazils previously reasonably decent environmental record either: the brazilian government has recently (about a year ago) gutted IBAMA and turned it into a rubberstamp, in order to keep it from interfering with the already-decided-upon, multi-billion-dollar, development plan which aims open up the interior of the amazon to exploitation by damming a series of rivers in the amazon and turning the entire western amazon into soy bean plantations. As president Lola put it, he don't want anyone to drop a damn catfish in his lap.

I know that at least some exporters feel that the purpose of the whitelist is to keep undescribed species from becoming commercially important or known abroad, and thereby from threatening the development plans which'll drive them extinct.

[taksan]

Exactly ...the Brazilian government are complete hypocrites and are only doing things for their own selfish means so they can claim to be doing something while the actual destruction of the Amazon basin (which is government policy) goes on unhindered.
I frankly think Brazil's export bans serve no purpose except to cover up the truth and they certainly won't stop me obtaining WC specimens I want ...call me a Black marketeer ...call me what you like I don't care because I'll have the fish I want.

[racoll]

You're arguing that they're being shipped from Peru? The point is that they aren't legal to export from Brazil, where the bulk of the fish used to be leaving from. It may take them a bit to seal up all of the holes in the system, but can you imagine patrolling that sort of border system? That would be like the US figuring a way to effectively restrict illegal immigration into the country from Mexico. It's a great little dream, but as long as there are unethical people willing to exploit circumstances, it will probably keep happening. Are they to be judged for making the effort or for "wanton destruction", I'm confused?

Don't get on too much of a high horse about Brazil making less than ecologically sound choices. There are very few countries out there that haven't made some serious mistakes along the way. Sheer size per capita makes Brazil a more rare case than most. You can point fingers all you'd like, but the consumer being willing to buy the animals they are restricting for export just drives that black market trade to new extremes. The fact that they are attempting to control it should be recognized as admirable, even knowing it may just be for their own selfish gains as prices climb. God forbid they actually benefit from the sales of the fish that live there, rather than everyone else doing it farther up the supply chain.

As Janne says, they aren't making these fish illegal to export, they are enforcing a list that's been in effect for years. The fact that people have been exploiting it and ignoring it all this time is their fault, but it looks like they're working to do something about it.

As someone who personally collects and works with many pl*cos, this will put a big crimp in my style, but will also encourage captive breeding efforts with more than just a few select species, IMO.

Barbie

Nicely put Barbie.

IBAMA's a joke .... Brazil has zero credibility in wildlife or fisheries management and eventually Brazilians will reap what they have been sowing for the past 300 years of wanton ecological destruction.

Exactly ...the Brazilian government are complete hypocrites and are only doing things for their own selfish means so they can claim to be doing something while the actual destruction of the Amazon basin

taksan, I think you confuse the difference between the departmental and national decision making processes. IBAMA will certainly have complete control over relatively insignificant matters like the export of a few rare plecs, but will have very little influence in large-scale government infrastructure planning (i.e. dams and soya plantations). As Mike said, much of there power has been taken away to stop them interfering.

I'm sure the IBAMA staff are even more opposed to the dams than you or I, but a way in which they can protect their biodiversity is controlling the totally unregulated export of ornamental fishes.

I don't think it is wise to assume the folk that make these decisions are all the same people and have the same agendas.

[racoll]

certainly won't stop me obtaining WC specimens I want ...call me a Black marketeer ...call me what you like I don't care because I'll have the fish I want.

Also, this is ridiculously irresponsible, and will only lead to more shipments of 1000s of plecs ending up dead on the tarmac at the airport.

The responsibility for this will be 100% yours, not IBAMA's.

This kind of attitude should very much be discouraged. It will get the hobby nowhere.

[Barbie]

I'm not at all happy about what's going on in Brazil. I'm just realist enough to admit that it's due to the crimp it could potentially put in my interests, not justifying it as a righteous rant about the injustice of it all. We all wish it was different. Constructively attempting to figure out a way to help with any of it would go a lot further than bragging about how rules don't apply to us, no?

The world over has been cutting down trees for hundreds of years, clearing farmland, building cities, but now that CO2 is really becoming a huge issue, everyone focuses on Brazil not just living in squalor when they too can cut down trees and improve their way of life. It's a huge generalization, but seriously, can you REALLY change what's happening? If anyone has any ideas for ways, I'd love to hear them!

Racoll makes a great point. The idea that IBAMA has any control over the actual governing bodies for the country is somewhat ludicrous. That would be like saying the Dept. of Fish and Wildlife here in the US has any control whatsoever in the decisions our president makes in governing the country. They MIGHT be able to get laws passed for protecting certain species, but it would be a long arduous process and certainly not a priority like finding alternative energy sources with rising fuel prices.

I sincerely hope I don't end up trying to be happy with the limited species I currently keep as breeding projects until Brazil is able to build dams and wipe them all out. Going around their legal system isn't going to do anything more than make the fines more steep and the attempts to enforce the restrictions more rigorous. How about we all pool together to help fund a study to help identify some of these "unknown" species and get them added to the "ok to export list"? Anyone have any idea how to go about such a program?

Barbie

[Bas Pels]

Although the idea I get from Brasil actions (IBAMA fighting a holy war agains exportes, while the rest of the government is active building dams, cutting trees and building road in the forests) is ludicrous, I don't think Taksan has his priorities right

After all, who will smuggle the fishes? Most likely the same people who also have the contacts for smuggling other goods (drugs, weapons, perhaps even humans, for prostitution), making them even more powerfull

As I detest smuggling druks, weapons and humans, I think I better refrain from buying smuggled fishes

[taksan]

The responsibility for this will be 100% yours, not IBAMA's.

I am 100% responsible for obtaining the species I want .... and I'll be dammed if I'll let IBAMA stop me. The fish won't be there in a few years due to the dams so I'd go further and say everyone has a responsibility to rip as many fish out of there as possible before they can destroy them all.

[Jon]

"I am 100% responsible for obtaining the species I want .... and I'll be dammed if I'll let IBAMA stop me."

You lose all credibility in taking a high horse stance against IBAMA's failed eco-policies if this is your stance on things. In fact, you're part of the reason why, as you say, the legal sanctions against exporting these fish don't work--so how does it feel to be a huge hypocrite?

[taksan]

The only Hypocrites are the Brazilian government .... stopping exports on one hand to show a public face of trying to be environmentalists while making secret deals with mining and logging companies and building dams on the other. I consider that any fish exported out of Brazil is rescued from the hands of these corrupt vandals.

[Bas Pels]

Taksan,

I'm starting to be offended by your attitude

You don't show any respect for an independed country which basically can pretty well do as they please

Yes, they do speak with two tongues, but what is new? Did you ever meet a politician who did not break any promise / never lied?

As I've written above, I don't think the Brasil government is acting rightfully. BUT smuggling does not provide any solution, the cure is far worste than the desease

So, please, temper your tone

[racoll]

the fish won't be there in a few years due to the dams

We don't know that these dams are actually going to get built. There could be a 1000 reasons why they don't go ahead.

Besides, there are plenty of rivers that plecos are exported from that will be unaffected by the dams. Should you just take these fish as well anyway just for the heck of it?

If you really cared about the ecology of the region you would be actively campaigning with Friends of the Earth or Greenpeace.

Somehow, I don't think you are

[MatsP]

Whilst I understand the reasons for either sides arguments, can we please cool it a couple of notches - or we have to lock this thread.

--
Mats