Striped Raphael/Humbug -dying/gasping @ tank

[Marc van Arc]

Canadian lady (I won't make that mistake twice),
According to the pictures your fishes are improving, which was something I hoped for but did not expect to happen. For this amazing feat I give you a big . I'm impressed.

[MissBooBoo]

Quick update w/pixs on the progress of my Catfish. They seem to be doing much better than my initial post. One has developed a secondary infection, but 'she' had a bath today to help scrape off the dead tissue. An extremely kind fish expert helped me, as he knew I was very anxious to try to do it myself. I cannot thank that person enough!! I will keep you posted as the days progress, but I am hoping, praying and being very optimistic that their condition will improve every day. Thank you all again for trying to help these very gentle creatures. Fri, April 16th, 2010 8:15PM


THURSDAY, APRIL 15th, 2010 - *Before* Medicated Bath to help stop secondary bacterial infection:


FRIDAY, APRIL 16TH, 2010 - Having medicated bath after scraping off dead tissue caused by secondary bacterial infection



FRIDAY, APRIL 9th, 2010 - After 2nd dose of FURAN-2 to stop bloody streaking of fins & gasping at top of tank



WEDNESDAY, APRIL 7th, 2010 - After 1st dose of FURAN-2 to stop bloody streaking of fins & gasping at top of tank

[MissBooBoo4]

Hello! Thks so much for asking....Today is Sunday, April 18th, and it's been 48 hours since one of the cat's medicated bath. 'She' seemed to be doing pretty good. I can barely notice just a tad of fuzziness. Only a speckle. Nothing like the pix dated on 14/04/2010 (see above).

They are beginning their 2nd treatment of FURAN-2 out of another recommended 3. According to my notes, this '2nd' treatment is actually their 5th, as they had 3 treatments prior to this, plus a break in-between. I had a break after their initial 3rd treatments, thinking this had cleared up. Unfortunately, the rounder fish developed this fungal/cottony patch which wouldn't go away. Noticed fungal patch on April 9th at end of 2nd FURAN treatment. Didn't notice again following day. The day immediately after their 3rd treatment ended (and I had hoped final), the fungal/cottony patch was back again. *Please see above picture taken 14/April/2010* After that, it was decided fish needed medicated bath to scrape off dead tissue and to go for another three rounds of FURAN treatments. Hope that's not too much info, or I've confused anyone??....just trying to get all the info out there I can.

Took a couple of pixs today -just before treatment. 'She' looks much, much better. If you look at the 2nd pix, you'll see a goldish/brownish circle, but that's just the camera/glass and light reflection. If you look closely, you can see the cottony/fungas is gone and seems to be replaced by a whitey healthy tissue.

[L number Banana]

Hi, how are the Raphs doing? Seemed like you were getting some great help

[apistomaster]

Assuming there was never a unexpected, uncycled filtration stage and these symptoms arose spontaneously, my first thoughts are that the symptoms you see are secondary to a primary infestation of parasitic worms.
I would have begun treating them with 3 medications at the same time for parasites; flubendazole, praziquantel and metronidazole. I believe it would be safe to add the antibiotic preparation you used at the same time without any fear of a harmful drug interaction.
I think adding about 1 tbs of rock salt per gal for the first week would also have been helpful.
I think internal parasites are what set the disease you see in motion but that disease is not the primary cause. You should also treat them for the internal parasites or as Matsp said earlier it truly will be "game over".

[Viktor Jarikov]

It concerns me that nobody's writing about the experience I've had with raphaels and salt. This makes me question my interpretation.

What I thought I had found is that Raphaels are salt intolerant (just like e.g., Dr. Johnson's www.koivet.com reputable website says). I've observed this with many: striped Raphaels, spotted Raphaels, and others and even with (eventually bigger) doradids like pterodoras granulosa and megalodoras uranoscopus, which led me to believe that likely all doradids are salt intolerant. They turn reddish in many spots on their bodies, they swell up at the same time at many spots, around the mouth, fin bases, etc., and eventually die even from around 1-3 teaspoons of NaCl per gallon. The same happens but to a lesser degree with less salt, say 2-3 teaspoons per 5 gallon bucket.

I found this when salting my rubbing and/or ich-bearing baby koi which shared the tank with the raphs. Not a good combo, sure.

Since then, I thoroughly avoid adding any salt to the tanks with doradids, which is a huge inconvenience for me but I had to do it. But now I think that, perhaps, I misinterpreted the happenings somehow???

[Bas Pels]

My experience with Platydoras is that they can have quite some salt.

in 1988 I got 3 Platydoras, and I always kept them with central American cich-lids. These are quite tolerant towards salt, and I have quite often used salt for them. Later, say 2000 I realized Platydoras are NOT central Americans, and might nog like the salt

But as these 3 are still (2010) doing well, despite the treatments they have faced, I think that are hardy towards salt. When needed I increased the salt with 1 g/l a day, for 2 or 3 days, ending @ 2 or 3 g/l. I never went to 5 g/l. The duration of the salt bath? It is remouved with the waterchanges, 25 % a week.

[Viktor Jarikov]

wow, they are 22 years old now! very very impressive.

just to clarify for others: one teaspoon (no heaping) is 5 ml = 5 g of water, likely about 7.5 g of salt, so 1 teaspoon per gallon works out to ~7.5 g per 3.785 l or roughly 2 g per liter

[Bas Pels]

In fact, I think they were half a year or more when I got them

Thanks for going into the amount. But I never spoon out salt, after all, 500 L, 125 gallon would mean 125 spoons

I just take half a packet of 1000 g

[2wheelsx2]

Or you can just use cups.

16 teaspoons = 1 cup, so 125 gallon = 8 cups approx.

[MatsP]

Interesting. A cup = half a pint = 227 ml. 1 tsp = 5 ml. 16 * 5 = 320 ml. So not quite a match. Even if it's imperial pints/cups, it's off, as a pint is 567ml -> 283 ml for cup.

--
Mats

[2wheelsx2]

Doh, sorry. I was using tablespoons. 1 cup = 16 tablespoons which = 48 teaspoons. So for 125 gallons, 2 2/3 cups.

[Viktor Jarikov]

1 table spoon = 3 teaspoons

but anyway, it sounds that my experience with doradids was due to smth else; still, whatever that smth else is, it must have occurred repeatedly at the times of salt addition - I was using salt with meds, without meds, for symptoms, without symptoms, as profilactic... got approx the same reaction out of my doradids... hmmm...

[Viktor Jarikov]

Mats, perhaps I am missing smth but 16 x 5 = 80

[apistomaster]

I agree with Bas that Platydorus are not particularly more sensitive to salt than other South American fresh water fish.
I tablespoon per gal is a therapeutic dose when that is the reason for using it and 5 to 7 days should be all it takes to reap any benefits that might be there to be had. One teaspoon is too low for disease treatment although that amount has proven to be useful when raising Nothobranchius spp fry, African Annual Killiefish, for the suppression of Velvet.

The Catfish looked every bit of their 22 years and perhaps they have come near the end of their lifespan under captive conditions you could provide.
Fish that size need more water the most fish keepers allow.

[MissBooBoo1]

Hello Forum. Thanks to all Members whom replied. Striped/Humbug Catfish are doing much, much better. I had quite a scare approximately 4 weeks ago with the redness and gasping at tank, but they are doing much better. Normal. Frequent water changes and a medication called: 'Furan-2' by API (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals). This company has recently been bought out by "Mars Fishcare North America, Inc.". Website: http://www.aquariumpharm.com

The 'FURAN-2' medication ingredients were: 60mg Nitrofurazone and 25 mg Furazolidone per packet. It worked!!

I'm posting this in case any members of your Forum ever have such a horrible situation like I had.

I was fortunate enough to get good feedback from senior members on a Fish Forum in my local area of the Eastern Coast of Canada. Their website: http://www.nsaquariumclub.com/
On that site, should you scroll down to the 'Hospital' section, you will see (2) two separate postings by myself regarding Striped Rhapheal Catfish. *If* not for that Forum, my catfish would have died.

I was fortunate to have had a very kind individual from that Forum come to my residence to give the sickest catfish a medicated bath which entailed scraping off dead tissue and putting a medication called "Bio-Bandage" (gel-based solution), made my POND SOLUTIONS on her dead tissue. This needed to be done twice. 7 days apart. (see previous picture). Without that, and the FURAN-2, my fish would have perished. The ingredients on the Bio-Bandage are: NEOMYCIN SULFATE, METHLENE BLUE, CYAOOBALAMIN (VITAMIN B12), BINDER AND ADHESION AGENTS IN AN ISOTONIC, AQUEOUS SOLUTION. (fyi)

I am very disappointed that this Forum does not have a *Hospital* section?? I wasted many precious days searching the Internet on a possible disease of my catfish on many fish forums, including this one. One of the first replies I ever received for help was to euthanize my fish! So glad I bypassed that reply and kept on searching for help. I'm sure the catfish thank me, too.

I was debating to reply on this Forum. I am *very* disappointed as to the response time and possible answers to help my fish. I do hope that by posting on this Forum, an individual, whom may have a similar situation with their Rhapeal/Humbug catfish, may be able to seek immediate advice, by searching/googling the Internet.

Again, I thank you for allowing me to post, but I am very, very disappointed as to the response and to some individual's (though trying to help) comments which made no relevance to my sick fish. I hope I will not have to search your website again for such a similar situation in the future, unless the format is changed. Thank you, again. (MissBooBoo)
Nova Scotia, Canada - 30/04/2010

[apistomaster]

Your aged catfish were very sick and the odds were not in favor of them surviving.
It was very nice a more concerned fish keeper in your area was willing and able to make a house call.
Actually seeing the fish makes choosing a course of treatment much easier than doing diagnosing and suggesting treatments from photos and descriptions of the symptoms over the internet..
But there are usually more than one ways to treat a fish for most diseases so it is no ones' lack of knowledge, concern or suggesting the treatments than your friend used that in anyway diminished the quality of the advise you received here.
The help here is free and based on the experience of 1000's of man-years of fish keeping but no one wins them all.
Being disappointed is your prerogative but maybe the next time your fish will have a problem your friend can't cure and others here may know how to handle it.
I find yours to be a childish response to the fact no one from planetcatfish came out to make a house call and perform the treatments for a disease problem for which you were clueless.
I speak for myself and do not represent the staff of planetcatfish.
I know this group has saved more fish for many uninformed fish keepers and they are very grateful for receiving the information which saved their fish.
Personal responsibility seems to be out of fashion these days. Your fish were sick long before your original post and needed action much sooner than you sought it. There is no assurance they will be alive a month from now so you might want to wait for the other shoe to drop. The disease organisms which caused the disease were always present and it takes some kind of stressful event to precipitate the full blown expression of the disease but who had control over the environment when the fish became so sick?
Many, myself included, have had enough experience with treating fish diseases to know that sometimes euthanasia is the kindest treatment of all. for the record, i was not one who suggested it but it is what I would have done personally. Even dogs don't live to 22 years very often so that is a good run for any aquaroum fish outside of public aquariums staffed with biologists and access to extensive veterinary services.

[Cory_lover]

Man, talk about nasty!

MissBoo, if you had really needed urgent care, you should've taken it to a fish vet! We have one around where I live. Please kindly forgive people who aren't surgically attached to their computers 24/7!!

You were lucky indeed to have had help with your local fish forum. However, I think the main purpose of this forum is to act as a discussion centre for people to exchange ideas, and not as a 1800-HELP-ME-NOW helpline. Your earlier threads of "thanking people and gratitude" now appears insincere and backhanded, and I speak for myself when I say i'll always remember you not as the member who did such a good job treating her Raphaels, and posting excellent updates, but as the member who totally ruined what an awesome "help" thread this could've been!

I've been on this forum for many years now and have received countless advice from fellow members! And people who are familiar with my posts know that I have never gotten involved with spiteful remarks or "online bitchiness", but you missboo have gone too far. If you truly feel this forum has been of no help to you, well then I say this forum can definitely do with one less disappointed yet somehow grateful member.

[andywoolloo]

wow.

First off I am glad your fish is doing better.


All of us , I am quite sure, were trying to assist you and your fish. In speaking of my post, it was your statement which lead me to my attempt at helping you, that and the pictures of your fish. you had said:

have been doing water changes every day or every 2nd day. This stresses the fish out even more.

I immediately wanted to know about the water in regards to the possible source of the illness of the fish. I would go there again. Keep on top of your water and most fish diseases are not seen. unless you do not QT and introduce something , even plants can bring in disease.

I have received great instruction here on any and all of my fish issues. I value their input and feel myself lucky to get their advice.

Your post was highly offensive and unwarranted considering every one was trying to help your fish.

[apistomaster]

I thought my post objecting to the tone of the OP's post citing her disappointment may itself receive extreme criticism. I see that others had much the same reaction as myself and do not feel so bad about being so blunt.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Larry, I may be wrong but it appears to me that you confused the Bas Pels' 22-year old raphs that him and I touched upon with MissBooBoo's raphs that she's got 2.5 years ago.

Anyway, my take is that I praise MissBooBoo for she clearly tried her best to post good, complete, and thorough info for anybody else to use in posterity obviously in a big part out of her care for fellow aquariumists and their pets. I like that about her a lot, listing ingredients, describing symptoms, posting good pics (albeit some pics were repeats and the whole thing was a bit erratic and hysterical (as in hysteria, not funny) at times but she obviously was distraught and in a hurry to save her beloved fish). She's done very, very well!!!!! I did NOT like her ignoring most of the excellent, pointed, and helpful questions from the experts, who wanted to know about water changes and other general upkeep issues, trying to get at the underlying root cause of the infection outbreak.

Mats euthanasia suggestion was made I am sure out of his vast experience and kindness of his heart. I think he is happy she did not follow his advice but one must bear in mind that this is being said in retrospect. We are all way too wise in retrospect, are not we ??!!

All in all, I will remember MissBooBoo as a good reporter with a heart in the right place, despite her being moody, cranky, and demanding at times (this is NOT a eulogy, Cory-lover ).

[wrasse]

Dearest Miss Booboo,

Best of luck to your catfish for they will need it, but do us all a favour and don't come back...

[2wheelsx2]

Guys, let's not turn this into a pissing match. It was obviously a bad experience for her. If she had such a bad experience, she's not going to come back anyway, but let's take the high road and stop this train wreck from destroying a useful thread which may save someone's fish some day.

[apistomaster]

Viktor,
I concede your points and they have been filed away so my future responses will be more well considered.
And twowheels is right, too. Live and learn but let's move on.

[Viktor Jarikov]

I agree we must stop this but please don't hate me for my last 1 cent: do not shoot the messenger just because you do not like the message - also, people pay for having focus groups.

To the PC staff and seniors: this was a mostly negative feedback but it does not mean at all that there was nothing constructive about it or that nothing constructive can evolve or be drawn from it. Critique, if thought valid and appropriate and taken in a right way, leads to improvements and eventually "near-perfection"... But we all must pick our battles... even with 1000's man-hours and man-years quoting Apistomaster

[Marc van Arc]

Alright good people.
Although I wasn't happy with the tone either and fail to see why she changed/adapted her name twice, best thing is that the fishes are doing well again.
Afaic she's welcome to visit any time.
Now let's indeed move on.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Many thanks are due from me to MissBooBoo!!!

In my two tanks, 55 gal and 120 gal, many/most fish in the tanks caught something with similar symptoms (after a major resident reshuffling in 7 tanks; not the first reshuffling but never had a problem like that before). And since MissBooBoo's thread was so memorable, I remembered about it. The combo of nitrofurazone and furazolidone has worked very nicely for me too so far. The only fish that died were the ones at the beginning when I did not know what was happening yet. Since I started the treatment, the die-offs stopped.

It's been a few weeks now and the fish are not 100% yet and I am still adding slightly more than I would consider a prophylactic dose. Don't know how long this will take to clear up completely but the persistence worries me.

[grokefish]

Wow cant believe I missed this thread.

[Viktor Jarikov]

sure, just as i'd written the above, I lost a few more... it's murphy's world

[knifegill]

I saw this beginning once on one of my 7" black-bellied armatulus. Took me a day to realize she was rubbing on a terra cotta pot. Took out the pot. Weird spot healed up right away.