Sorubim lima and BN

[MatsP]

I find it fairly unlikely that there are man-made hybrids of Sorubim species. I'm not saying it's impossible, but what's the real point of hybridizing a genus that have mostly similar species? I can see mixes with other Pimelodids for one reason or another, but mixing, say, S. lima with another Sorubim species just doesn't make sense to me - you're not going to get something that is incredibly fast-growing, extra tasty or otherwise better as a food-fish [as far as I can see]. And these fish aren't popular/expensive enough in the trade to be much point breeding hybrids for the aquatic trade.

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Mats

[kizno1]

Ill have to write down how many rays and bit they should have a go and have a closer look at it next time im there.
Are they fine on there own or do they NEED to be in groups?

[Viktor Jarikov]

Good points, Mats. I've been mulling it over and must say I was most likely misremembering prior discussions: it is not the hybrid problem but the look-alike purebred species problem with Sorubim.

Still, let me talk just in general, not in defence of my possibly faulty memory. There is a host of similar-looking "TSNs" and some experts believe that what is commonly available in the trade is a hybrid of planiceps with maybe a fasciatum or recticulatum or tigrinum or smth else. Maybe, this happens because all of these are kept together and breed together somewhere in SA farms?

Not every breeder is as intelligent as you are, Mats Some SA fish farmers may have overheard/were told that hybrids are "better". So that is what they are doing until someone teaches them that they are wrong. Old knowledge/"know-how" is hard to replace - ignorance rules everywhere, including my life too

Moreover, it is not unreasonable to presume they may know more than we do and hybrid Sorubim possess some other good traits that we do not know about, like a stronger immune system or what not - I am just fantasizing now. Or they are sterile, which means the buyers have less of a chance to breed them - hence, bigger sales for the seller/originator, right?

[MatsP]

The TSN (and close relatives) are indeed farmed as food-fish in South America - and hybrids produced to achieve "hybrid vigour". I don't believe Sorubims are frequent in aquaculture [I did a quick google, but not everything is available on the web], and if they are, it would then require that the parent fish come from completely different regions to produce hybrids - possible, but less likely.

It is well known that Aquaculture fish are introduced into the ornamental fish trade. But by no means a given that this is where fish in the shop comes from. Most of the Pimelodid species are undoubtedly wild-caught.

I think there is a tendency to shout "hybrid" as soon as the fish aren't easily matched with an existing well-known species. It is entirely possible that not ALL species have been discovered/identified/scientifically described yet, as well as there being regional variation within a species.

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Mats

[kizno1]

If i can get it on pellets which type would be best?

[MatsP]

Something intended for carnivores - there are so many different kinds, and they are all pretty much the same thing with only small differences in actual content (most of them having that major ingredient being "fish-meal"). Sinking pellets tend to expand a bit less than the ones that float, usually - they way some of these fish can eat can give them quite a "beerbelly", so expanding types are less suitable.

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Mats

[kizno1]

Ok thanks. Ill have a look around then.

[kizno1]

Would a banjo catfish and lima work? I think the answer will be no because banjos are quite skinny and arnt really the fastest of fish.

[MatsP]

I wouldn't want to be a banjo cat in a tank with a reasonably large Sorubim lima.

[kizno1]

I wouldn't want to be a banjo cat in a tank with a reasonably large Sorubim lima.

Yeah i thought that would be the answer. Thanks

[Richard B]

I wouldn't want to be a banjo cat in a tank with a reasonably large Sorubim lima.

Yeah i thought that would be the answer. Thanks

personally i wouldn't risk it but there is a likelihood a banjo would be overlooked due to inactivity - the natural prey of Sorobim is openwater swimming species (not something stuck to the bottom looking like a leaf) however i haven't factored in the artificial envionment of an aquarium

[kizno1]

I wouldn't want to be a banjo cat in a tank with a reasonably large Sorubim lima.

Yeah i thought that would be the answer. Thanks

personally i wouldn't risk it but there is a likelihood a banjo would be overlooked due to inactivity - the natural prey of Sorobim is openwater swimming species (not something stuck to the bottom looking like a leaf) however i haven't factored in the artificial envionment of an aquarium

Good point. Ill maybe try when the limas small but ones it gets bigger than the banjo i wouldnt want to risk it.

[TP]

To answer the question about which dry food people are feeding, my Sorubim's take Doromin and suprisingly JMC catfish pellets which is good as its pretty good value. The are incredibly greedy, I keep them with 5 Hoplosternum littorale who are no shrinking violets and the Limas get the lions share.

As for the dither fish, I recalled the below topic where Grokefish says that although Columbian tetras are usually very good at avoiding predators, they had big problems with the limas

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... ma#p117747

(if the link doesn't work search for the topic "Scenes from the Grokeroom")

Watching how quickly they strike the surface when the Doromin goes in I can vouch for the fact they are lightening fast, personally I wouldn't risk any small tetra or danio type fish with them.

[kizno1]

To answer the question about which dry food people are feeding, my Sorubim's take Doromin and suprisingly JMC catfish pellets which is good as its pretty good value. The are incredibly greedy, I keep them with 5 Hoplosternum littorale who are no shrinking violets and the Limas get the lions share.

As for the dither fish, I recalled the below topic where Grokefish says that although Columbian tetras are usually very good at avoiding predators, they had big problems with the limas

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... ma#p117747

(if the link doesn't work search for the topic "Scenes from the Grokeroom")

Watching how quickly they strike the surface when the Doromin goes in I can vouch for the fact they are lightening fast, personally I wouldn't risk any small tetra or danio type fish with them.

Ill have a look into them pellets thanks. Yeah the link worked. Ill stay clear of columbian tetra then. Im not sure what will work the only thing i can thing of is silver dollars but im not massively keen on them.

[Richard B]

Im not sure what will work the only thing i can thing of is silver dollars but im not massively keen on them.

Is a dither fish required? In the confines of a limited space aquarium any open water swimmers are likely to be concious & stressed by the presence of piscivourous catfish. Limas will like to be in a group which gives them the security they need without traditional dithers. Another alternative is a different predatory fish that is compatible like maybe a medium pim of some sort with a similar growth rate - doesn't have to get big but needs to be big enough in respect of the lima to not be considered a threat or food - P. ornatus is a beauty that might work for example

[kizno1]

Im not sure what will work the only thing i can thing of is silver dollars but im not massively keen on them.

Is a dither fish required? In the confines of a limited space aquarium any open water swimmers are likely to be concious & stressed by the presence of piscivourous catfish. Limas will like to be in a group which gives them the security they need without traditional dithers. Another alternative is a different predatory fish that is compatible like maybe a medium pim of some sort with a similar growth rate - doesn't have to get big but needs to be big enough in respect of the lima to not be considered a threat or food - P. ornatus is a beauty that might work for example

I was just thinking about them more because i want a pair of severums and didnt want them picking on the BGK if they breed And the geos can get a little feisty when breeding. Would more catfish work in my planned tank? i would think it would over crowd the bottom.
The stocking i want is
2 gold sevs
2 festivum cichlid
5 redhead tapajo geophagus
3 BNs
1 black ghost knife fish
1 Aequidens latifrons or Aequidens metae
1 lima shovel nose

[Richard B]

I was just thinking about them more because i want a pair of severums and didnt want them picking on the BGK if they breed And the geos can get a little feisty when breeding. Would more catfish work in my planned tank? i would think it would over crowd the bottom.
The stocking i want is
2 gold sevs,2 festivum c*****d,5 redhead tapajo geophagus,3 BNs'1 black ghost knife fish,1 Aequidens latifrons or Aequidens metae'1 lima shovel nose

In a 5x2x2 this is reasonable stocking in terms of capacity. If the severums do breed, they'll pick on anything that they feel threatens the nest site. The BGK can get massive & is a sneaky nighttime predator and a single Aequidens seems odd rather than a pair or group. This mix may work but is not something i personally would pursue. If you want to breed cichlids i feel the dedicated set-up is the best way forward. Limas go best in a group. A BGK is best in a tank where the set-up is geared to it & really could do with something a little bigger.

You have only the BGK as a bottom dweller as the lima will hide amongst reeds or branches so another bottom dweller might fit in ok but equally might suffer if the cichlids want to reproduce

[kizno1]

I was just thinking about them more because i want a pair of severums and didnt want them picking on the BGK if they breed And the geos can get a little feisty when breeding. Would more catfish work in my planned tank? i would think it would over crowd the bottom.
The stocking i want is
2 gold sevs,2 festivum c*****d,5 redhead tapajo geophagus,3 BNs'1 black ghost knife fish,1 Aequidens latifrons or Aequidens metae'1 lima shovel nose

In a 5x2x2 this is reasonable stocking in terms of capacity. If the severums do breed, they'll pick on anything that they feel threatens the nest site. The BGK can get massive & is a sneaky nighttime predator and a single Aequidens seems odd rather than a pair or group. This mix may work but is not something i personally would pursue. If you want to breed c*****ds i feel the dedicated set-up is the best way forward. Limas go best in a group. A BGK is best in a tank where the set-up is geared to it & really could do with something a little bigger.

You have only the BGK as a bottom dweller as the lima will hide amongst reeds or branches so another bottom dweller might fit in ok but equally might suffer if the c*****ds want to reproduce

I was a bit wary of how big the BGK will get but i was told on another forum that they would work in my size tank. Im still not sure in them because i think they might get picked on a little. I dont really want to breed the cichlids but wouldnt mind if i did get the odd fry. The reason i only went for one Aequiden was because i though if i get more and they breed there could be problems and i thought it might work out a little over stocked. The tapajos will spend most of there time on the bottom and since they get 20CM im not sure how any other bottom dwellers would do with them especially if they breed. What sort of stocking would you recommend? i defiantly want the tapajos, BNs and aequidens latifrons or metae and would really like a lima but am willing to drop some of the other fish.

[kizno1]

I know you said P. ornatus would work with them but would P. pictus work? there the only type ie seen around here or would it be best to get a group of limas? Although i doubt a group would fit in my tank.

[Bas Pels]

Problem is, P pictus remains much smaller than P ornatus. In fact, they don't grow bigger than snack size for Surobim, I'm afraid

[kizno1]

Problem is, P pictus remains much smaller than P ornatus. In fact, they don't grow bigger than snack size for Surobim, I'm afraid

Fair enough. Ill maybe have to rethink the lima then because ive never seen any other type of pim around here.

[Back]

oh, I remember the other reason for saying that: people have great things to say about a shoal of lima! Ask Back from Finland! He is HUGE on limas - it is even his avatar.

Well thanks. But I wouldn't say that. I only have experience from a few ones (total of 6) Sorubims. My experience is not at all the whole truth about keeping Sorubim
Today I have four, three juveniles and one which I've had for about 11 years. It's not bigger than appr. 23 cm and hasn't grown mor than maybe 2 cm during these eleven years. The juveniles have grown about 2 cm in half a year (9 to 11 cm). Nothing says that they will stay as small as the older one. The can very well grow to twice the size.
The older Sorubim was alone (Sorubim-wise) for one year before I managed to get it new company. They are much more at ease if they can be in small groups.

Regarding other fish in the tank I have had only one going down a Sorubim throat. This was the smallest in a group of Black Skirt Tetras.
Tetras - Yes, stupid to house those in the same tank but for some reason my Sorubims have never been keen on consuming tankmates and I've had plenty of small fish that they've completely ignored. Other Sorubim keepers have the opposite experience.

Corys, Banjos, Bristlenoses... never any problems. But I never bought any Otocinclus as algae cleaners

I feed them mostly earthworms, shrimps/prawns, mussels and sometimes pellets of various sorts.

[kizno1]

oh, I remember the other reason for saying that: people have great things to say about a shoal of lima! Ask Back from Finland! He is HUGE on limas - it is even his avatar.

Well thanks. But I wouldn't say that. I only have experience from a few ones (total of 6) Sorubims. My experience is not at all the whole truth about keeping Sorubim
Today I have four, three juveniles and one which I've had for about 11 years. It's not bigger than appr. 23 cm and hasn't grown mor than maybe 2 cm during these eleven years. The juveniles have grown about 2 cm in half a year (9 to 11 cm). Nothing says that they will stay as small as the older one. The can very well grow to twice the size.
The older Sorubim was alone (Sorubim-wise) for one year before I managed to get it new company. They are much more at ease if they can be in small groups.

Regarding other fish in the tank I have had only one going down a Sorubim throat. This was the smallest in a group of Black Skirt Tetras.
Tetras - Yes, stupid to house those in the same tank but for some reason my Sorubims have never been keen on consuming tankmates and I've had plenty of small fish that they've completely ignored. Other Sorubim keepers have the opposite experience.

Corys, Banjos, Bristlenoses... never any problems. But I never bought any Otocinclus as algae cleaners

I feed them mostly earthworms, shrimps/prawns, mussels and sometimes pellets of various sorts.

Cheers. Ill give the banjo a go then when there smaller. What do you think would be best to do for my tank? Would a group fit in there?
Thanks

[Back]

Cheers. Ill give the banjo a go then when there smaller. What do you think would be best to do for my tank? Would a group fit in there?
Thanks

They most certainly thrive better in groups. They are a bit calmer and not as nervous as they might be otherwise. Not being overly nervous and stressed is of course also good for their overall health and condition.

Furthermore it's also more "aesthetic" to see them interact instead of having one just hiding somewhere - If I'm allowed to talk in terms of visual impact when it comes to keeping fish
Don't think you need many though. Two is already much better than one. Three or four may add even more self confidence to the individuals.

If I have my inch and feet calculations correct you might need to start considering a larger tank when they reach about 12". I'd also be careful to have too many other tankmates due to Sorubims' sensitivity of water quality. Or you need to have effective filtering.

[kizno1]

Cheers. Ill give the banjo a go then when there smaller. What do you think would be best to do for my tank? Would a group fit in there?
Thanks

They most certainly thrive better in groups. They are a bit calmer and not as nervous as they might be otherwise. Not being overly nervous and stressed is of course also good for their overall health and condition.

Furthermore it's also more "aesthetic" to see them interact instead of having one just hiding somewhere - If I'm allowed to talk in terms of visual impact when it comes to keeping fish
Don't think you need many though. Two is already much better than one. Three or four may add even more self confidence to the individuals.

If I have my inch and feet calculations correct you might need to start considering a larger tank when they reach about 12". I'd also be careful to have too many other tankmates due to Sorubims' sensitivity of water quality. Or you need to have effective filtering.

This is the biggest tank ill have any time soon. Maybe it would be best to leave them out then. Same but i dont want it to be unconformable in my tank. Cheers

[Back]

This is the biggest tank ill have any time soon. Maybe it would be best to leave them out then. Same but i dont want it to be unconformable in my tank. Cheers

If that's the case I think your decission is wise. I'm sure they would do fine for some years in the tank you have now but we all know they won't remain small.
...except mine ??

I'm in the position of having to move mine over to a bigger and especially a wider tank.
Luckily I have such a tank waiting. It's not as wide as I'd wish for but enough as a their new home until the next tank is ready (built).

[kizno1]

This is the biggest tank ill have any time soon. Maybe it would be best to leave them out then. Same but i dont want it to be unconformable in my tank. Cheers

If that's the case I think your decission is wise. I'm sure they would do fine for some years in the tank you have now but we all know they won't remain small.
...except mine ??

I'm in the position of having to move mine over to a bigger and especially a wider tank.
Luckily I have such a tank waiting. It's not as wide as I'd wish for but enough as a their new home until the next tank is ready (built).

Yeah i think it will be best to wait until i have a bigger tank because im not sure if is worth paying £75 for 3 to get rid of them in a few years plus i dont know anyone with a big enough tank to take them. Just out of interest what would you say the min tank size for 3 is?

[kizno1]

Would

Platystomatichthys sturio

be better? Do they need to be in shoals? Theres not much info on them other than they only get 14"

[Richard B]

Would

Platystomatichthys sturio

be better? Do they need to be in shoals? Theres not much info on them other than they only get 14"

My personal recommendation for this species is a really big floor plan as often they get spooked & smash their noses on the glass causing an upturned jaw.(see pic @ http://www.insaneaquatics.com/catfish.php) It is less likely to be spooked by having carefully considered tankmates to go along side it. It also is expensive when seen for sale. I'd not put it forward for your proposed set up

[kizno1]

Would

Platystomatichthys sturio

be better? Do they need to be in shoals? Theres not much info on them other than they only get 14"

My personal recommendation for this species is a really big floor plan as often they get spooked & smash their noses on the glass causing an upturned jaw.(see pic @ http://www.insaneaquatics.com/catfish.php) It is less likely to be spooked by having carefully considered tankmates to go along side it. It also is expensive when seen for sale. I'd not put it forward for your proposed set up

Fair enough. What would you recommend?