need help please

[Amy]

Have a big issue with nitrates being high cannot bring them down even with water changes so here is the story.

Two years ago I bought a tank complete with Discus and the sand the current owner had in it. I brought all this home set it up just like she had and all was fine. Now going into my third year of this tank I still have the sand in it but my nitrates are through the roof. I often find the plecos at the top of the tank thinking they needed more oxygen i put an airstone in there only to see no difference. I do weekly water changes but very rarely disturb the sand bed which is 1" thick. I have stirred the sand at times only to create a read headache. The water is clear but there is a haze in the water too. I run a 305 fluval on a 46 gal bowfront tank. I do run carbon and change it often. So my question is, should I remove all this sand or some of it?

I don't want to disturbe the tank to much but would love to get the nitrates down below the 80 which they are currently at.

[racoll]

Have you measured the nitrate levels in your tapwater?

[Amy]

I am going to go and do that right now and also do the tank as well and will post as soon as i get them

[Amy]

OKay maybe its me. Yesterday before I did a water change it was at 80 which has been normal for quite sometime. I did a big water change yesterday and did put new filter floss into the cannister too. Yes I am using this floss to get some of the finer debrie that is in the water colum and its working great. So maybe this was the magic key I needed to do as before the floss I was using the ceramic rings that came with the cannister fitler and just kept on rinsing them out. My LFS told me to junk them as they are of no use anymore an could be the cause to my high nitrates. Guess she was right, I just did a test and I have never been at 10 before but that is what I got just a few min ago. I also checked the ammonia just in case and its at 0 so maybe the tank is just balancing it self out now. I know in the saltwater world we would never think of useing those rings as they are nitrate traps for saltwater hobbyists and I think this holds true for the freshwater too.

[apistomaster]

You should incorporate using a gravel vacuum siphon with your routine water changes.
Removing the accumulated detritus from the sand at least once a month will keep the sand pretty clean. Detritus builds up slower in the substrate than the water soluble portion of nitrates in the water. That is why vacuuming the substrate monthly is normally enough.
But you water changes are not up to Discus standards in general.
I have been keeping and breeding wild and domestic Discus since 1969 but I began keeping my first Discus in 1967.
I change about 75% of the water about every 4 days. That is more than some discus keepers but less some others.. The exact routine you adopt is not as important as just having one in the first place. Doing less than 50% water changes every 4 days is not enough. Once you increase the volume and frequency of your water changes you shouldn't have a nitrate problem. If you continue to have high nitrates after increasing the water changes then that means the tank is probably over stocked, or you are feeding too much food which is going uneaten. If you happen to use a frozen beef heart blend this food is especially prone to contributing to excessively high nitrates and you may have to cut back on how much you feed, increase the water changes or reduce the population down to what the tank can comfortably support. I would consider your tank over stocked if you have more than five adult Discus and 5 is running close to the maximum number of adult Discus the tank can support no matter how much water you are changing. Your tank is small for a Discus tank. The crude rule of thumb is 1 discus per 10 net gallons of tank capacity. The substrate subtracts from the actual volumes as do all pieces of wood and rock you may be decorating the tank.
I think you should consider using a 75 gal tank for no more than 6 adult Discus making the sizes of water water changes that I have recommended. I generally prefer to maintain some sandy substrate in my Discus tanks but I usually use only about a 1/4" thick layer of sand. I do not like a bare bottom Discus tank but using a thinner layer of sand as I do benefits Discus because they instinctively sift sand for bits of food and using a thin layer means they can easily sift that much sand well enough to minimize a build up of wastes or uneaten foods. I pot a few larger show plants like Amazon Swords in FloraBase and I use timed release fertilizer sticks in the pots for plants like Amazon Swords which are heavy feeders. The large plants quickly exhaust the nutrients if you do not fertilize the potted plants regularly. I like using NutraFin PlantGro fertilizer sticks. One is enough at first but very large plants may need 2 sticks. They last up to one year but if growth slows down that may mean you should add new sticks about ever 10 months. Rather than using flower pots with a drain hole I use clear plastic 2 liter juice bottle bottoms as my pots. These confine the root system and contain the fertilizers where they are most needed.
Potting the large plants like this allows you to rearrange the positions of the plants if you desire without shocking the plants since their root systems are not being disturbed.
I cut the bottles so the resulting pot is about 4 inches deep. As long as you supply them with enough substrate fertilizer the fact that the plants may become root bound will not hamper the growth of large plants.
Discus are large fish and you should avoid over crowding them. You can create a very nice planted tank look using mostly potted plants, thin substrate and the use of bog wood to help conceal the pots. I am currently redoing my 125 gal tank which will be similar to the type of set ups I described. I have 10 F1 Nhamunda Blue Discus which will begin to form mated pairs this summer. The remaining Discus will be moved to the 125 as my show fish but they will be sharing the tank with schools of Green Neons, Hatchetfish, Pencilfish, and Rummy Noses. I will use some of my L134 as the main bottom feeders and stocking a couple dozen Otocinclus and 6 Farlowella as my algae eating crew. It will be a Low tech planted tank.
I will be following the same substrate cleaning and water changing advice as I shared with you.
A nitrate reading of 10 ppm to 20 is normal for a well maintained Discus tank. I do not like seeing a nitrate reading higher than 20 ppm in a Discus tank. That indicates taking action against the causes are in order.
The considerations for a reef tank are far more stringent.

[racoll]

I think the reduction in nitrate level is more to do with the water change you carried out, rather than the type of filter media you are using.

I hope you didn't throw all the rings away, as these will perform much better nitrification than the floss, despite what your LFS say.

[Amy]

Hello, Okay to answer some of the questions and responses. The tank houses one 6 year old adult male discus. He lost his wife a while ago so in the regards to overstocked on the Discus I think I am okay there. He is doing well by himself, I did try to add a female but that did not turn out well at all. I won't add anymore young discus with him as its just not going to work. He was by himself when I first bought him for 2 1/2 yrs, he is quite large in size too. I do have some neons and rummynoses along with the plecos so he is not in a tank by himself but he is not in the ideal Discus community either. I won't part with him.

Yes I should be doing more water changes, I can bump that up for sure.I also can watch my feeding to make sure there is nothing lying around either.

I can vacum the sand, once a month is doable for sure.

The rings, yes I tossed them out. With them in and water changes I never had a reading in the 10 range, it would be at 80 again in a few days.

It seems weird but I have never had a canister filter, I have always used the Aqua Clear HOB filters for over 20+ years in this hobby with no issues at all. Even when I had overstocked tank never an issue with them but this canister has given me nothing but grief in a few ways.

A few of the fish are certainly irritaed as they are scraping on the sand the odd time (tetras)the haze is what gets me the most.

A while back i started using Prime when I did a water change, this is where that haze came into play. I have not used it for a very very long time but still have this haze.

I do have one pleco that is breathing rather fast, this is a new addition to the tank.

I can honestly say that I am overstocked on plecos, I do have 5 very young plecos so some have to go. I also feed my plecos, the tank is very very clean they do a great job.

I am just puzzled.

[plecomanpat]

Hi Amy, did you say that there are 5 small plecos in a 45 gal bowfront? If so, I dont think you are over stocked on plecos.I have over 30 in a 180 gal on top of 12 cory's a couple of banjo cats and a couple dozen rummynose and harlequins. Regular maintenence is the key along with daily observations.Good filteration is a bonus.I run 2 fluval 401's and 2 powerheads with buffering sleeves.You can try (as Larry has said) some potted plants as they do a tremendous job with filtering the water and removing nitrates. Good luck and keep us posted

[Amy]

Maybe I should list what I have then you can tell me that I am overstocked.

I also have Anubias on my mopani, I have 3 nice size pieces of this wood for the pleocs. Here we go, don't yell to hard at me just tell me how many plecos I have to get rid of.

1 large male discus
7 neons
4 rummynose
5 serbae cats
6 plecos ( I see I put 5 should be 6)
1 dwarf blue gourami

[MatsP]

Doesn't sound like you are overstocked right now. However:
1. What size are your 6 plecos?
2. What is a "serbae cat"?
3. Assuming your tap-water is reasonably low in nitrate, nitrate should go down with big water changes.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with your filter, as long as it's not full of debris of some sort...

--
Mats

[joefish72b]

Amy,
The canister filter shouldn't be the cause of any of your problems. I have one tank with sand and I can tell you when I used to do a water change the tank would haze, mostly due to the sand getting stirred up by the water addition. What I did is something that has already been mentioned. I started to vac the sand with every water change and after a few months the water stopped getting hazy when I changed it.

I got the sand with a larger tank but didn't use it, so it sat for about a year, and I did the usual boil and rinse but I guess there was either just a lot of material caught in the sand or the sand itself had broken down some and the fine particles would just suspend in the water. Either way after about a dozen times of being vaccumed I started to notice a difference. Now the tank is crystal clear even after a water change.

One other thing you can do is get a "polishing" pad to add to your filter. This isn't something you always need, rather you put in in once and let it clear out the fine particles. It's meant more for a new tank set up, just to help get the water clear but it might help clear up your issue.

Hope this helps.

[apistomaster]

Washed, white quartz pool filter sand makes a good thin layer substrate.
It should be rinsed well before use and it will not cloud the water. But a bacterial bloom which causes cloudy water is common in freshly set up tanks which are not yet completely cycled.
It is a good idea to plan ahead and get some sponge filters cycled in well established tanks and use these in conjunction with the main filter. These will help you be able to use new tanks sooner than if you begin from scratch and need to have new set ups you can use asap.

I agree that you should use some fine floss to "polish" the water but bacterial blooms need to run their course. Sometimes making large water changes can actually prolong the bacterial bloom. The new supplies of minerals in the water often help feed the blooms. They are best "starved" out. Large fresh water changes can actually sustain the blooms. Keep feeding to a minimum and if at all possible, use a filter from another established tank as a bridge until the tank and primary filter have fully cycled.

[Amy]

Hello, the cory cats are Serbae cory. Sorry for that.

The New pleco is 3" in size the two silver tip are maybe 1 1/2" long with head and tail, the 3 albino 4"

These cats really stir up the sand alot I have noticed so I am going to do a good vacum on it today. The tank is not new its been running like this for just about 3 years. I have never had sand before in a tank and not sure I am crazy about it at all. It seems when I stir it up a bit for water changes the fish really suffer from it.

I am thinking it might be the link to my water problem and hazy problem as I have never had a tank like this before. I have one very unhappy discus at the moment so I have to do something.

So these are my options, what would you do:

Vacum the sand
Remove the sand and replace it with gravel

[MatsP]

Just to be clear, nitrate doesn't come from something in your tank, as such, but from the protein in the food you add [mainly at least, if you have dying plants and poorly digested fecal matter, then yes, that will increase the nitrate production "post fish"].

So you the plecos are all bristlenoses?

And I think you mean

Corydoras sterbai

?

Cloudy water usually indicates a bacterial bloom. It may be caused by a ammonia spike... Replacing the substrate is very unlikely to fix this, and if you haven't had the cloudy water before, it's probably not the sand. I have sand in ALL of my tanks - different kinds and different coluurs, but all sand...

I added an elbow (90 degree bend) to my water-fill hose so that it doesn't stir the sand so much - changing your water change flow may be a better way than replacing substrate.

--
Mats

[Amy]

Yes the plecos are all bristlenose except for the one L134

Yes that is the correct type of cory cat.

The water does not stir the sand, my outflow is at the top of the tank just below the water line.

Okay maybe I will do a very careful vacum of the sand and see how things are from there. I tested my ammonia and it is 0

[apistomaster]

Replied to your PM.
New info I have now is you have no ammonia problem. That is good.
Vacuum the sand by crimping the siphon hose just enough to lift the sand up into the tube and hold it their until that sand runs clean. Repeat over the entire bottom. You are basically removing materials which may be contributing to cloudy water but once you are finished and refill the tank with water which has been treated to neutralize the chlorine and chloramine found in some water supplies, the tank should return to being very clean. Disturbing the sand after it has been cleaned in places should not cause any cloudiness.
I mentioned in the PM how important surface area is to biological filtration. Well, the sand particles are a part of the biological filtration system. The beneficial bacteria still coat the cleaned sand only now there won't be any crud accumulated in the sand.

[racoll]

Two things I would also think about are:

(1) Are you overfeeding? This could easily explain the cloudy and poor water quality.

(2) What kind of sand is it? Coral sand, or another unsuitable type could also contribute to the cloudy water and irritated fish.

[Amy]

Hello, well I did a careful vacum of the sand bed. Replaced the water with treated water, fish look better.

I am going to test tomorrow again and see where things are.

Over feeding???? That can be my biggest fault and I know it. I will be alot more careful when I do feed from now on. I just want to make sure that all the plecos get some food and don't go hungry.

I find the new one is a night time guy, so what I will do is feed the plecos when the lights go out so I am not feeding twice a day poluting the tank. The other fish will get fed as usual but alot less.

As for the rings, they are in the garbage, I will buy new ones instead. One thing I did not do is replace the sponge media in the filter, it is well seasoned and I did not rinse it either when I took out those rings. So that should also help somewhat.

The new thing in the filter is the floss, I only have the floss in the top compartment and charcoal in the lower two compartments. I did not dump everything out of this filter when I removed those rings.

Hopefully now things will balance out and start to look better.

Thanks for the replies

[krazyGeoff]

Hi Amy,
I do not think that you tank is overstocked either.
In my tank # 6 in my aquaria, I have had a similar issue to you.
This tank is 48US Gal.
At its peak I was running 40-50 cardinal tetras, 40-50 rummynose tetras, a trio of 3 inch bristlenose, 1 x L260 (Hypan), 3 x L034 and a few barbs.
Sure it was most likely overstocked, but that was compensated with an appropriate maintenence effort.
The nitrates I got were often in the 80-120 reading area. I generally put this down to the bi-product of the nitrogen cycle. So if I was not getting the nitrates then I would be getting ammonia and nitrites, which would have been much worse.
The fact that your other readings are OK suggest that your filtration system is working as expected.
I run a Fluval 305 canister filter on this tank and do not use the noodles, but I prefer Ehiem - Substrate Pro. The larger surface area means that I can sacrifice one of the trays in the canister for other items.
For Carbon, which I only run in this display tank I use Bio Chem Zorb from API. The best thing about this carbon product is that when it is exausted it just stops working, rather than release some of the extracted contents back into the water.
As far as a nitrate adsorber, I use Nitra-Zorb from API also. Again this product just stops working when exausted and can be re-charged up to 6? times by soaking it is salt water.

The noodles are gone which is unfortunate as the filter may need to be re-cycled (biological filtration as per what Larry was talking about).
I personally would also replace the carbon.

From where you appear to be right now, I would replace the already disposed of noodles with a high surface area media, and I would also replace the carbon.
I would have a product like Prime handy, as I fear that your biological system needs to be re-established. Unfortunately in order for this to happen you need to go through the nitrogen cycle (amonia - nitrite - nitrate), which means that the nitra zorb cannot be added as it will remove the nitrite before the cycle can be completed.
I would monitor the ammonia and nitrite and nitrate, and if there is not ammonia or nitrite indicators then your biological filtration has survived, and then you can add a nitra zorb or similar product.

I would feed every second day, and wait at least a week before being comfortable that there was no ammonia readings.

I see that you are running a 305 too. So in mine I run carbon in 1/2 of one tray, 2 whole trays of substrate pro, and 1/2 of one tray is a nitra zorb.

I would suggest that as your fish have grown larger, and a couple more have been added, then the additional food added, and the extra waste being produced by the larger fish has caused the filtration system to work harder, hence the high nitrates. In addition I would suspect that this increased rate of biological activity has caused the carbon to be saturated quicker than you are used to. This has contributed to the cloudyness. In addition the carbon may be leaching back into the water some of the "stuff" that it has extracted, which could in turn add to the biological load on your system.

Keep us posted.

Cheers
Geoff

[Amy]

Thanks all for the great info. I will keep an eye on things as they progress. I had less headache with my 3 gal pico saltwater tank I had going for 6 years. Yes 3 gal, it was alot of fun but I was bored of it and the cost of saltwater anything here is insane.

Thanks again

[apistomaster]

Two things I would also think about are:

(1) Are you overfeeding? This could easily explain the cloudy and poor water quality.

(2) What kind of sand is it? Coral sand, or another unsuitable type could also contribute to the cloudy water and irritated fish.

It is for these reasons that I have advised Amy to use pre-washed pool filter sand made of quartzite. And to use a layer only about 1/4 inch deep.

[Amy]

Are you recommending I wash this sand I have in the tank now?

This sand came with the tank which was up and running for about 1 year before I bought the whole thing. When I moved everything to my place, I took sand, water, fish, plants and all to avoid having to restart the whole system.

The sand is brown in color, its not new sand that I have in this tank if that is what the confusion is about.

Today things are not well at all, there is no ammonia and the nitrates are between 10-20 when I tested this morning.

Fish are showing some stress but not to bad, the worst is my new pleco whom is showing some orange on the back half of the body. This one I am very concerned about. The other fish have been in the tank for a very long time.

The rummynose tetras have very bright red noses, some say they are the canaries of the aquarium world. They are showing no stress at all, but I know the tank is kicking into a cycle due to the removal of the rings.

I have added some Prime, now I just wait and see and feeding very lightly at the moment.

[apistomaster]

Use the in place gravel cleaning method using a siphon designed to do that. If you remove and wash the sand it would be like starting fresh. You want to avoid disrupting the biological filtration system which includes the sand. Cleaning the sand with a gravel vacuum does not set back the bacteria. They form a biofilm over the surface of every particle of sand but that is not harmed by the vacuuming out of accumulated detritus.

[Amy]

Okay great, I did vacum the sand yesterday very lightly. Things are the same it will take a few days to get back to normal I guess. Fish are eating when I do feed so that is a good thing, they are not scratching on anything either and that one pleco looks a bit better tonight. So keeping fingers crossed

[apistomaster]

Vacuum the substrate clear to the bottom.
You can do this carefully around plant roots by allowing the sand to lift up and you go deeper then reversing it the same so the plant roots remain where they belong and undamaged. This takes a little practice.

[Amy]

Update:

Well call me crazy if you want but what a learning curve this has all been. First off I have never had a canister filter and have certainly learned alot. I have always used the HOB filters and never in my 20+ years of this hobby had an issue with nitrates liked this ever.

So, I am very glad to say that we are not out of woods yet but my lord the difference is night and day. I will never ever use those ceramic rings again in my life, never. They are in my instance the same nitrate traps for saltwater as they are for freshwater.

My fish, well I did loose one catfish through this all but they are old cats too. My new pleco, god bless him after having half of the body and orange/red color he is back to normal color and never lookded better. The other fish including the discus are so good now, its hard to believe they are same fish. So active, eager to eat its so unreal for me.

I am very upset with myself as I now truly believe this is what contributed to the loss of my female discus I could just sit and cry. But i must move on and make sure this never happens again.

When I did vacum the sand and because its not a deep sand bed I was quite surprised to find not alot of stuff coming from it which tells me the filter is doing its job, just without those ring..

So my ammonia is still 0 and the Nitrates are still 10 so I am soooooo happy I cannot tell you how happy. This has been a real learning lesson for me and while some may have success using these rings I will never ever use them again.

My plants are looking very good to, I only have Anubias which are attached to mopani and none are in the sand so it makes cleaning really easy but most of all I have my old fish back that are happy.

[MatsP]

I very much doubt the filter media is to blame. If your filter is full of "dirt", then clearly it needs cleaning.

The only reason you get nitrate in the water is that you have protein in the system - either from food or dead plants/fish, which turns into ammonia, and eventually nitrate. It doesn't come from the filter - unless the filter is full of rotting food, plants or fish.

In a marine tank, you don't want to build nitrate in the filter, because you have live rock that provides a further stage of nitrogen cycle, and produces nitrogen gas from the nitrate - so you don't want nitrogen cycle bacteria in the filter as such. This is a different matter than in freshwater tanks. Also, in marine tanks, the stocking level is lower and the water changes are generally small.

--
Mats

[racoll]

I very much doubt the filter media is to blame. If your filter is full of "dirt", then clearly it needs cleaning.

The only reason you get nitrate in the water is that you have protein in the system - either from food or dead plants/fish, which turns into ammonia, and eventually nitrate. It doesn't come from the filter - unless the filter is full of rotting food, plants or fish.

I agree. I am 100% certain that the ceramic rings are not to blame for the difficulties you have had.

Solving high nitrate problems is easy - just feed less and change water more. It really is that simple!

[Amy]

Well i am not going to argue over it but I will never replace those rings.

Everything is working out well now and my filter was never really dirty when I did a full filter clean on it.

It was your average amount and my feeding the past year I have cut way back to the point where I want the fish to catch all the food before it falls on the sand. The only thing I fed on the sand was some wafers to the plecos but I am careful to not over feed those either.

All is going good now, so I hope it keeps on this way.

[Amy]

I had a marine tank for the past 6 years and never had an issue with nitrates, I did use a HOB filter on my nano, it was the easiest tank to maintain. My readings were always perfect and my corals grew like no tomorrow. I did nothing special at all except for very good lighting. So I know all about Marine tanks and how they work too.




In a marine tank, you don't want to build nitrate in the filter, because you have live rock that provides a further stage of nitrogen cycle, and produces nitrogen gas from the nitrate - so you don't want nitrogen cycle bacteria in the filter as such. This is a different matter than in freshwater tanks. Also, in marine tanks, the stocking level is lower and the water changes are generally small.