Problems with L134 eggs

[Lihn]

Hi Forum

I have some problems with my Peckoltia compta which lays a lot of eggs but the eggs isn't fertilized and therefore I am asking you for help..

My L134 probably laid eggs for 8-10. time! But out of all those times I only had 1 litter out of it (it was for 8 broods, although there were slightly more eggs). The eggs are white after 1-2 days, and rotted. Is not it a sign that they are not fertilized?

There are 10 fish in a 100 liter (I know it is crowded), with a lot of caves and roots. Is it because they get distracted by each other?

I've tried to take the eggs off, as I suspect the male not to fit well enough on the eggs, but not this I can get to succeed. The eggs are rotting, no matter how much air circulation and they are getting.
There are 2-3 males that breed (and also more females), but none of them can figure it out.

I have L260 and Hypancistrus and they are succesfully breeding in the same water (but another aquarium) - there are no problems.

Water quality should not be a problem (well functioning filter and when the fish spawn, it is always after a 80% water change). 7 in pH (is it too high?) and max 10 in kH.

Why can my L134 not figure out how to breed?

[MatsP]

I have not bred this fish, but perhaps my questions may lead towards finding the answer:
1. How do you know they are not fertilized?
If they don't hatch, it could be lots of other things.

2. Are you "stealing" the eggs from the male, or leaving them?

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

You may have better hatches if you use softer water. I don't think it critical but since you have wild fish it may matter more than it does if your fish were tank bred. I am breeding them in water with a pH of 7.4, KH ~6*, GH ~8* and TDS of ~340 ppm. I keep and breed them at a temperature of 84*F/28*C.

I used soft water with my wild fish but I am not with my F1 breeders.
I never disturb breeding plecos.
I have raised around 800 P.compta over the past 4 years and the average brood numbers about 25 and the range has been 20 to 35 fry per spawn. Out of all these spawns I have only had one in which the eggs got ejected from the cave. I just placed the eggs in a 4.5 gal tank filled with water from the spawning tank and equipped it with a sponge filter. Only a couple eggs were dead. I leave the fry in the breeding tank until there are too many then I remove them all to make room for new broods. This way the fry are at least 2 cm long when I net them. I do not like to net very young fry. It is too easy to hurt some.

I use a couple large sponge filters. One is run using the air lift and the other is driven by a 160 gph/600 lph power head. I also use an air stone.
I have always had my 5 to 6 wild breeders in a 20 gal long. 70.5 liters.
These are 12 X 12 X 30 inches. Metric 30.48 cm X 30.48 cm X 76.5 cm.
I make the assumption that P. compta prefer faster water like riffles or along side rapids. These are well oxygenated portions of any stream. I try to simulate these conditions. I consider having a current, high dissolved oxygen levels and warm enough water more important than the exact water chemistry within reason.

Another factor to consider when there seems to a fertility problem is their diet. I only feed my fish food high in protein. I can get by with just earth worm sticks and frozen blood worms. I start my fry out on only earth worm sticks but it doesn't take very long before they can eat frozen blood worms.

I set up two new groups of my own F1 in new breeding tanks two months ago. I found I had two different sizes of F2 fry in their tank last week. It shows how little attention I pay, let alone disturb them. Human intervention is rarely necessary.
I recommend allowing the male to provide all the brood care and see no good reason why the eggs should be removed unless they are accidentally ejected. The other adults in the tank will not harm the new fry.
My L260 have ejected eggs most frequently but in each case these were the first spawns from my F1 fish. None of these ever hatched. My older wild L260 have never ejected any of their spawns.
It isn't unusual for young breeders to have infertile or partially fertilized eggs in their first spawns among Discus or Angelfish. That seems to have been the case with my young F1 L260. They are the only plecos I have had any experiences with that was somewhat similar to what you described.
I get the impression that you are disturbing your fish too much. Perhaps letting nature take its course would help you get better results if everything else appears to be OK?

[zinfin]

Thanks Apistomaster for a very thoughtful reply to help the original poster as well as the rest of us.

[Lihn]

Hi Mats

1. I cannot say that they are not fertilized by 100% confidence. I judge it from what I see: They are getting white quite fast after the female had laid the eggs.

2. I have tried all the things. Both leaving the eggs with the male in the main aquarium, taking the eggs away from the male to another aquarium and I have also tried to take the cave with the male and the eggs to another aquarium. Nothing succeeded.

-----------------------------

Hi Larry

I have just made another 80% water change with rain water. I hope it will lower the hardness and pH a little bit. I did also put a big handful of oak leaves into the aquarium.
I don't think I disturb them too much, but I will try to cover the aquarium next time with a towel or something. Maybe it can darken the aquarium a little bit and they won't be distracted by me when I am working with the aquariums.

[apistomaster]

Hi Jacob,
You do not need to cover their tank walls nor dim the lights.
Mine breed in tanks which are lighted all the time. I never got around to putting my lights on a timer and I leave them on for months on end. I keep telling everyone how lazy I am. Too lazy to turn off the lights is pretty lazy.
What I never do is shine lights inside of caves. I consider that a disturbance of the breeding and brooding fish. I never watch for any signs of spawning. I don't know when my P. compta spawn until one day I notice new fry. I do not provide much care at all. It doesn't matter since the diet I use on them is fine for the fry I may not know I have. I only figured out last week I had any fry from my F1 breeders. It took me a few days later before I realized I had two different age groups of fry. I try to feed them twice a day but sometimes I only feed them once. I try to change 3/4 their water each week but actually they are lucky if I do it twice a month. I am better at making frequent water changes during their breeding season and then I try to change 3/4 of the water every 4 or 5 days.

I did not have any successful spawns from the wild fish until I used RO water beginning in February to lower the TDS down to about 40 ppm from 340 ppm but once they have spawned several times I have to allow the water to go back to being the same as my tap water so I can safely remove the fry to a grow out tank which is filled with tap water. It may have been a mere coincidence. I really do not know with certainty if the soft water really played a significant role. I have had the wild fish spawn during times when they were in the tap water. I think that may be why your eggs are not hatching well but my experience tells me that isn't all that important but my water seems to be a little softer and has a slightly lower pH but not all that much lower than your water. My tap water has a pH of 7.4. I do feed them much more frozen blood worms during their breeding season. That may be more important than water chemistry.
I have only used tap water to breed my F1 breeders.
I have only had L134 breed between early spring through the summer and very early fall. Rarely after August 30th but a few times I had some in early Sept. In just one occasion my wild breeders spawned in the winter but that spawn produced only 5 or 6 fry. Only that one time since 2008.

[Lihn]

Thanks a lot for another very useful reply Larry!

I probably think it is because I am playing too much with the flash light. I am quite often looking for fry in the caves and if they have eggs I am still looking to the eggs to see how they develop. Maybe I should stop doing this and see if it helps.
I have just bought a TDS tester at DealExtreme.com to test my waters conductivity. I will tell you what the conductivity is as soon it arrives.

My fishes have breed since the start of October - maybe there is a difference in air pressure or something like that compared between your place in the USA and by me here in Denmark.

[apistomaster]

Jacob,
I have never understood why my wild and tank raised P. compta have only bred between Feb. 15 and Sept 15.
I would estimate I get almost 90% of my spawns between March 1st and August 30th.
It does correspond to the wet season which is when most of us believe the majority of SA tropical fish spawn.

Even though I should put my lights on a timer or at least turn them off at night it hasn't prevent the from spawning but they do go inside confined spaces where little light reaches the end of the caves. In nature there is nothing that would ever shine a light inside. The fishes instincts may make them decide they chose the wrong spawning sites if light kept reaching inside their caves. Ultimately the fish control their spawning and brood behavior. We hobbyists merely provide some imitation of their breeding habitat. I think you may have to use softer water to get better hatches from your wild fish if you continue to have poor results after you stop shining a light inside their caves. If you want to take a look inside maybe it would be better if you took photos with a flash? I don't think the fish notice such a short burst of light and they aren't smart enough to remember the photo session.

I have spent many of my years in the hobby breeding Discus. I began breeding wild Symphysodon haraldi many years before I ever tried farmed Discus and I am far too lazy to try the artificial fry raising methods. But whether they are wild or domestic one of their similarities with breeding plecos is the wonderful brood care they provide. It is so much easier to let Discus raise their fry than it is to resort to the artificial method. I really like fish that do all the hard work. I think it is harder to raise Tetras and other fish which have minute fry which require microscopic size foods at first and very clean water. They are so sensitive to foul water yet the infusoria cultures have to be done in pretty crummy water and that water has to be added to the fry tank. It doesn't take much to kill the fry so it is always a balancing act to feed and keep the very small fry doing well.
In fact, I breed Tetras, Pencilfish and small, wild, bubble nesting, Betta species just to keep my breeding skills honed. There are still several species I haven't mastered yet. Some of the Pencilfish, Neon Tetras, Cardinal Tetras and the little Red Bettas in the Betta coccina complex are among those on my "to do" list of breeding more difficult species. I just found a couple small Betta coccina but I think I don't have a pair so now I am looking for some more.

[Lihn]

...a little update!

Yesterday hatched a new brood of eggs from my L134. This is only the second time it happens out of 8-10 times with eggs. There is about 12 fry in the brood (one of the smaller ones).
This time I focused on a low pH (around 6) and to the 100% of rainwater was added some oak leaves to lowering the pH.

It was a succes and I must try it again in the future