Ingo vs PC

[TwoTankAmin]

I was on another general fish site and came across a post dealing with L182 vs L183. So I pulled out my copy of Ingo's L-cafishes from 2008 and then came here as well.

I find that the description provided in Ingo's book for the L-183, aka Ancistrus dolichopterus, and the one on this site almost look as if they are dicussing two different fish:

Max Length- Ingo says "25-30cm" while here it says "10cm" (100mm).

Temperature- Ingo says 24.0-29.0°C where here it says 23.0-28.0°C

pH- Ingo says "4-6" while here it says "6-7"

Breeding- Ingo says "One of the trickiest Ancistrus species, which can usually be bred successfully only in soft, acid water. Very particular is its choice of spawning cave. According to Römer (1990) up to 100 eggs are laid". But here its says "reasonably straight forward once the correct (black water) parameters are attained. Spawning follows the typical pattern for the genus. The female lays around 50 eggs in a cave or hole that is guarded by the male."

Distribution- Ingo says The Rio Negro river system while here is says Amazon, Middle Amazon (Solimoes), Negro, Lower Negro,Amazon, Lower Amazon, Trombetas, Lower Trombetas, Amazon, Tefé
Amazon, Middle Amazon (Solimoes), Madeira, Amazon, Tapajós

Identification- Ingo says "A particular characteristic of A dolichopterus is the high number of soft rays in the dorsal fin (8-10, only 7 or rarely 8 in other species)." While here it says "There is however a key that differentiates this species from all other (currently known) Ancistrus species - it's the only species with one hard and nine soft dorsal rays (I,9)."

One final note here it says of the 183 "Also encountered under the name Ancistrus hoplogenys" but Ingo's book lists Ancistrus hoplogenys as L059.

So which is the correct, or at least the more accurate, information for this fish? I am once again confused.

[MatsP]

I was on another general fish site and came across a post dealing with L182 vs L183. So I pulled out my copy of Ingo's L-cafishes from 2008 and then came here as well.

I find that the description provided in Ingo's book for the L-183, aka Ancistrus dolichopterus, and the one on this site almost look as if they are dicussing two different fish:

Max Length- Ingo says "25-30cm" while here it says "10cm" (100mm).

I'm not going to argue with Ingo as such, but Fishbase says 11.8cm SL for

Ancistrus dolichopterus

- I'm not saying fishbase is any better than us, Ingo or anyone else - just another data point. So 100mm is a bit small. But I'm not sure 25-30cm is correct. Anyone got a photo of a big one with a something to give a measurement, please send it in...

The original description gives sizes of around 4-5"/100-125mm TOTAL LENGTH.

I checked the origin for the Fishbase, which is the Checklist of Freshwater Fishes of South and Central America. That book doesn't document where the information comes from.

Kathy Jenkins book "Bristlenoses" says that they grow to about 5".

Temperature- Ingo says 24.0-29.0°C where here it says 23.0-28.0°C

Not a huge difference, do you think? The ideal temperature is probably somewhere in the middle of that, anyways.

pH- Ingo says "4-6" while here it says "6-7"

I'm pretty sure they prefer slightly lower pH, as they come from blacwater habitat.

Breeding- Ingo says "One of the trickiest Ancistrus species, which can usually be bred successfully only in soft, acid water. Very particular is its choice of spawning cave. According to Römer (1990) up to 100 eggs are laid". But here its says "reasonably straight forward once the correct (black water) parameters are attained. Spawning follows the typical pattern for the genus. The female lays around 50 eggs in a cave or hole that is guarded by the male."

I have no idea - I haven't bred this fish. Clearly if they grow really big, I'd expect much more than 50 eggs - given that a 10cm common can lay about 80 eggs.

Distribution- Ingo says The Rio Negro river system while here is says Amazon, Middle Amazon (Solimoes), Negro, Lower Negro,Amazon, Lower Amazon, Trombetas, Lower Trombetas, Amazon, Tefé
Amazon, Middle Amazon (Solimoes), Madeira, Amazon, Tapajós

Bear in mind that there is a difference between L183 (the L-number) and the species

Ancistrus dolichopterus

. By definition, an L-number is a photo of a fish, with (hopefully) a collection point. A fish that looks the same collected elsewhere is (in theory at least) a different L-number. So L183 is from Rio Negro. The species A. dolichopterus (according to fishbase) is from several rivers in Brazil [specifically "South America: upper and middle Brazilian Amazon River basin and from the Negro, lower Trombetas, Tefé, Madeira and Tapajós River basins."] - so I believe this is the data we have used for the Cat-eLog. According to Catalog of Fishes, it is "Widespread in Brazil and Guyana". Of course, we could have a discussion as to whether it is ONE species that is so widespread, or several similar species - but currently, there is no other species described that matches, and there are no L-numbers that match either.

Identification- Ingo says "A particular characteristic of A dolichopterus is the high number of soft rays in the dorsal fin (8-10, only 7 or rarely 8 in other species)." While here it says "There is however a key that differentiates this species from all other (currently known) Ancistrus species - it's the only species with one hard and nine soft dorsal rays (I,9)."

No direct contradiction here. It is typically (I, 9) (one hard, nine soft rays).
The original description by Kner (in German) is here, and says (I,9-8), so I suppose we should cover 8 as well as 9 to be more accurate.

One final note here it says of the 183 "Also encountered under the name Ancistrus hoplogenys" but Ingo's book lists Ancistrus hoplogenys as L059.

As do we. No one is saying this species is the same as A. hoplogenys, but that it SOMETIMES is sold as A. hoplogenys (which can be easily differentiated by the dorsal fin ray count as discussed above).

So which is the correct, or at least the more accurate, information for this fish? I am once again confused.

Good question. I have tried to explain what information I can find elsewhere. It is VERY hard to fill in the Cat-eLog, and quite often we only have the account(s) from one person or two.

It is good to question things. I think I have explained MOST of what you are questioning.

As we build the "My Cats" and get data from that, we will be able to use information from that to indicate what conditions most people keep/breed their fish under.

--
Mats

[racoll]

but currently, there is no other species described that matches, and there are no L-numbers that match either

I don't think the old scientific literature as used by FishBase etc, distinguishes between A. dolichopterus, and similar species such as

L071

,

L249

,

L181

etc. This may account for the distribution.

Some of these similar species get pretty big, such as L181 from the Tefe. Not sure if Negro A. dolichopterus can get this big, though.



In summary, I don't see a huge disagreement between the sources, as many of the issues listed are not directly contradictory.

Size is subject to discrepancies in direct observation (as is brood size). The distributional differences are subject to vagaries in historical data sources. The pH difference probably reflects that Ingo was talking about wild habitat values rather than a reasonable guide for the aquarium.

[MatsP]

I don't believe we need to do anything here.

--
Mats

[Jools]

I think the water parameters (need for softer water) should be adjusted in the clog.

Jools

[MatsP]

I think the water parameters (need for softer water) should be adjusted in the clog.

Jools

A blackwater resident that can be somewhat delicate if not kept in similar conditions in captivity.

Isn't that saying that?

--
Mats

[Jools]

I meant lower pH, I've made the change now.

Jools

[Shane]

Did you see Ingo' great article on these fish http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... cle_id=380 in Shane's World?
-Shane