Liosamadora Oncinus - Urgent advice required

redfan · Post by **redfan** » 03 Dec 2011, 00:43

Hi, I seem to have such a rubbish run of things lately. The last of which was velvet on my LDA33 (posted elsewhere) which shares a tank with my 3 Jaguar catfish.

I treated the velvet using ESHA Exit, which after a fair bit of research did seem the best way to go as it's a fairly safe med for sensitive fish.

However since day two my Jaguar Catfish have been refusing to eat

it's now 2 days after treatment ended (4 days since they last ate) and still they refuse to accept anything offered (from wafers, Bloodworm mix, mussels and prawns). They have always relished their food and it has never lasted more than a matter of seconds.

I have noticed that they look pretty much as they were with the exception of very sunken stomachs. One of them actually looks like he's got a very "lumpy" stomach (almost like he has a belly of gravel in there). Also, they are now active until lights on (around 11am) they have always hidden away at dawn so this again is very unusual for them. Equally where previously they have always swamped my hands on feeding to get at the food now they swim a mile.

Have attached a short video of one of them taken minutes ago. I am at my wits end with all of this, these guys have been doing so great these last few months, yet now I feel so helpless.

Day after the final Exit treatment (2 days ago) I added the 3 x 100g bags of new carbon to the tank filter and did a 50% water change. None of this seems to have helped. What can I do? Are they likely to eat eventually (should I just persevere)? Or do I accept the fact these guys could simply starve to death?

Tank temperature is around 27C would reducing it back down to the 25-26C help?

I have toyed with the idea of moving them into the 30G tank on there own and maybe treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic? not sure about this given I have no idea what's going on.

Many thanks, and feel so guilty for all the advice I have sought from you guys these past few weeks. As above things atm just seem to be going from bad to worse. Thanks again

Martin S · Post by **Martin S** » 03 Dec 2011, 08:48

Firstly, nothing to feel guilty about - forums are here to help anyone who needs it and PC is here for the discussion and interest of catfish keepers worldwide.
Anyway, back to the matter at hand. How are the LDA33? Has the treatment worked? I certainly would not risk moving them now and chance upsetting them now. The one in the video doesn't look that bad at all and 6 days without food is not the end of the world.
You've done a large water change, and added carbon to remove the chemicals, and if you are happy they have done their job, then yes begin to lower the temperature - slowly, say 1 degree C every 3-4 days back down to 25C. The fish looks healthy, no clamped fins or cloudy eyes do I just think its going to be a few days before things get back to normal. Whatever you do, don't try overfeeding to get them eating, and ensure you feed a small amount to the other fish during lights on and feed the jags sparingly after lights out.
I'm sure others will have other advice, but just, for the moment, try not to worry too much.
Martin

redfan · Post by **redfan** » 03 Dec 2011, 09:05

Thanks Martin

The LDA33 seems to have fully recovered and shows no sign of velvet or anything else. Originally I planned to treat the plec on his own, but then I noticed a few tetra with what looked like spot so decided to treat the whole tank to be sure. Everything seems fine with everyone else.

I do think they are kind of eating, the food does seem to disappear after I leave the tank area. Assuming of course it's not the tetra eating it (unlikely given their inactivity after lights out).

You are right in the one on film looks not too bad, my main concern is 1 of them has a really sunken stomach (this is the one that for whatever reason has always been hand fed as he never gets a look in when feeding). ATM he is the only one still out and about (given it's way past dawn now).

I will go and drop the temp down a little and will see what happens tonight.
Thanks Again.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 03 Dec 2011, 10:24

If it's any comforting to you, I can confirm what Martin says. After an "event" (disease, overhaul) I "missed" my Lios too; sometimes for days, sometimes for months.....
Just make sure you add some food during the lights out period, so they are able to eat and see to it there are no left-overs in the morning (so the food won't ruin your water quality).

Although I understand you want to see your fishes in order to see if they are okay, that's hardly possible with woodcats. Imo the golden rule is: if you don't see them, they're okay.

BUT: this rule doesn't always apply. To my regret I have to say I've had my share of this rule not working, because when I finally saw my fishes they were "beyond repair". And as I'm not able to see your fishes in person, I can't give you a guarantee. Imo this is the trickiest part of keeping woodcats.

On a side note: how are your Synos doing?

rmiller · Post by **rmiller** » 03 Dec 2011, 15:01

Hey mark, hadn't been on pc for a while, but figured I should drop in and send you a bit of encouragement. Sounds like they just need a bit of time. Hope the jags are well today. I will have my comp

uter up all day if you need to chat.

redfan · Post by **redfan** » 03 Dec 2011, 15:07

Hi Marc, Thing is ever since getting them they have always been out and about after dark and I have always added the food whilst they are there and tbh as I said originally they go crazy for it.

ATM they are still on show of an evening just not eating in the same way I usually expect. Equally though as mentioned to Martin the food does seem to go. I will try and do a better video than last night. However I guess the concern is they don't seem to be eating anywhere like what they have done and also the one specific Jag that appears really thin.

When my hand goes in the tank with food atm they all kind of vanish and have seen them literally just sitting on the bottom of the tank hiding. All very strange. I will persevere and have managed to drop the temp from about 27-28C down to 26-27C (ish) hopefully this will have an affect (it may hopefully be nearer the previous 25C by tonight).

On the other question, the Syno's are doing really well in their tank now, had no more losses and salt all out of water now all going well there

Rebecka - Thanks for your words, nice of you to pop in here and offer your support .. cheers

(may pop in chat in the next hour or so, really need a bath atm .. just done another water change so bit stinky atm)
Many thanks

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 03 Dec 2011, 17:16

I would add 3 points to the good advice you've already had.

- I would generally advise continuing treatment for about a week after all signs of disease have gone. Then water changes, then slowly lower the temp back down.
- Do you know what sex they are? Male jaguars can get nasty with each other. Yours are big enough and therefore mature. You might see the dominant fish only, while the others hide. Look for ripped fins, gashes, white bite marks, listen for them croaking (arguing/fighting) when the lights are off.
- Be super-careful of transmitting a disease from one tank to another, like separate nets, dry your hands, etc. In fact you can sterilise all by using the hot tap...

redfan · Post by **redfan** » 03 Dec 2011, 17:24

Thanks wrasse

Did not continue treatment as the med stated 3 days only. Am not sure on the sex of the Jaguars but do know that I have not noticed any fighting /cuts/noises etc. In fact they seem to get on really well and happily intermingle from what I can see.

As for cross contamination .. I thought I had taken all precautions I could, from using a new vacuum to using only 1 bucket to have fresh water in it and another for waste water.

Thanks

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 04 Dec 2011, 16:43

My Jags went through a period of ~4 months refusing to eat when first introduced to the tank. Don't know why. Appeared healthy. It was a battle of wills. I caved. Tankmates ate it all. I had to start dropping food on their heads in their hidey-hole so they eat something. Then they ate hungrily. In about 6-8 months, they went into 120 gal (from 55 gal). Were active and feeding fine there - I didn't have to seek them out. Point: healthy-at-the-start fish can endure very long fasts, even 1/2 year.

Jags usually eat (if food is plentiful) till they look like animal-print ping-pong balls with fins. I find it strange that your jags developed sunken stomachs after merely 3-5 days of not eating or not eating as much as before. One reason this happens is when fish have internal parasites, like tape worms, etc. If they've been eating to their heart's content for a long time before, they should get sunken stomachs only after maybe 2-4 weeks if not longer.

Meds and temp change things. Maybe temporary maybe permanently.

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 04 Dec 2011, 16:45

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... lit=55+gal

redfan · Post by **redfan** » 04 Dec 2011, 20:49

Indeed Viktor and mine up until about 6 days ago would eat until I stopped feeding and regularly resembled ping pong balls with fins. Since the 3 day med this has ceased. Though I will say 2 of them did show some eating behaviour last night and the food certainly did vanish after a while.

Whether it was them that ate it or something else, not sure .. but the 2 of them do at least have what I would describe as flat (not sunken) stomachs. My primary concern is the one that does not seem to eat at all, he has very much a sunken middle stomach and what looks like bones (under skin) on either side of his stomach visible.

I have wondered whether this is a parasite problem, but it does not ring true given all this started when the med was added, it's been 4 days or so now since meds finished and carbon added and in that time 70% water has been changed.

Thanks for the reply, I will be trying for a video tonight (just about to turn tank lights off) which will hopefully show you guys more than I can write about here.

Many thanks

redfan · Post by **redfan** » 05 Dec 2011, 01:32

Well here is a video, and maybe you will see why I am so concerned .. this is what they now do .. the one in the video just freezing, it's just so upsetting and not what I have seen these last few months!

Seeing them behave like this only leads me to fear the worst tbh. Would adding salt to the tank maybe help things?

Many thanks for the continued support.
Mark

rmiller · Post by **rmiller** » 05 Dec 2011, 03:13

I see what you mean. I am definately concerned about that guy up front. Maybe he was waiting for that cuddle and a story.

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 05 Dec 2011, 07:23

On the plus side, the fish look strong, they are not plastered with any spots that I can see.
The rapid gill movement suggests you are not out of the woods though.
Remove the carbon, repeat whatever treatment you did. Increase temp to at least 30degC and add salt as before. 'Blast' the tank with air. And this time, when all signs of disease have gone, leave it for a week before you begin WCs.
Don't bother feeding during treatment either, it won't hurt them. Just give a vegetable to the plec... lettuce or courgette perhaps.

minkweir · Post by **minkweir** » 05 Dec 2011, 15:49

Hi,in a twisted sense I'm glad to see that there are other people who have problems with their tanks/catfish that seem to happen for no logical reason.Especially when the daily routine has not changed and no new fish or plants have been added to spread disease.Sometimes I think that its the tap water that causes the problem...you never know when the local water authority has messed around with pipes etc ...I'm sure they add extra chemicals to the water after a job ,but sometimes I think they may unleash bacterias etc that were in the pipes too.
I'm only a noob but I've spent hours on forums reading about each individual species I have and tried my best to duplicate those conditions as best I can(setting the tanks up way before I even get the fish) and still had allsorts of problems rear their uggly heads.
What frustrates me is that in the wild fish endure many changes in their living conditions from availability of food to water quality,temperature,depth,sunlight etc etc and survive no probs..but a slight change in a tank can cause no end of problems and even death!
Frustrating ,expensive and with certain fish a total disaster for that species if they die eg the death of my male C.Evelynae!!!

redfan · Post by **redfan** » 05 Dec 2011, 16:13

Wrasse - Am pleased you think they look strong

I really do not want to treat with exit (which was for the plec and a few of the tetra) again tbh .. however I am keen on trying the salt idea (did not add it last time, only my cuckoo tank). Will these guys be ok given current state without food for another week? Also, you certain (as can be) the raising the temp up to 30C is not going to affect the Jags? (asking as unsure whether it was this that started the whole not eating thing)

One other thing, I thought it would be fine to use salt while carbon present? (only just bought and added the new carbon, don't really want to have to remove and buy new yet again, if ya see me point).

If it's ok, I will remove 20ltr water and replace with 20ltr fresh with the salt added and gradually added over a few hours (whilst raising the temp). Sorry with the Q's lol just want to get this right

Many thanks for you continued support and Cheers Rebecka

Minweir - Yes it can all get somewhat frustrating (as you may have noticed me getting in this thread lol) it's like the Cuckoo's had spot in their tank, lost 5 of them (all replaced) problem solved .. took as many precautions as I could re not cross contaminating my other tanks .. then BAM my 4ft gets issues .. very annoying, but much more upsetting.

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 05 Dec 2011, 17:05

My jaguars are happy at 28degC. 30 is no problem for these fish. 31-32 would speed the process. Blast the tank with air and add salt... both will help them take in oxygen.

Your jaguars are far from starving. Right now food is not the issue. Curing them is... to be blunt. Rapid gill movement suggests continued infection to me. Sorry to say, but i think you removed the treatment too quickly first time around. I might be wrong.

Scaleless catfish makes disease treatment trickier, unfortunately. Regarding the outcome... there are no guarantees with this mister.

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 05 Dec 2011, 17:15

How big is your tank?

If you add water, add it at the same temp so as not to shock the fish.

Turn off the light during treatment.

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 05 Dec 2011, 18:06

Hi I have experience of Woodcats particularly Jags.

what I will add to this discusion is:

Your Jags look healthy
Jags will not tolerate nitrate pretty much at all, they will breathe rapidly and not eat food.
when ever My jags had any signs of illness I treated with Water changes every day for days on end.

That is all.

redfan · Post by **redfan** » 05 Dec 2011, 19:51

Thanks for the replies guys ...

I am pretty confused now (not hard to do at this point) Wrasse & grokefish your both saying different things, hence my confusion. I would be happy to do a big water change tonight and add salt (even raise the temperature) However are you both able to agree this at this point is what's required, or would it be just as beneficial to maintain the 26C temp and just do good 30% W/C daily?

Wrasse the tank is 240ltr, when you say blast it with air, do you mean add as much surface movement as possible? (I can add another air stone, but that's about it)

Many thanks & just for info I will add a Ammonia and Nitrate result in a short while (before doing the water changes).

Results are - Ammonia 0, Nitrate between 10 - 20ppm (I would edge it more towards 20ppm as the API colour chart does not really have a distinct difference between 10 & 20ppm and it was pretty dark orange).

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 05 Dec 2011, 20:19

Ime most auchenipterids are not fond of huge water changes; I lost quite a few fishes that way, among which my Tetranematichthys.
Although the Groke is a nice bloke, I'd stick with Wrasse this time. Too much advice will only increase your confusion, which is one thing to avoid.

redfan · Post by **redfan** » 05 Dec 2011, 22:56

Exactly my point Marc lol

Well I have done a 25% water change this evening while the lights were still on (just to lower the nitrates a little) and one of the Jaguars appeared from his cave .. went a bit nuts, bumped himself into a piece of wood, now he has a little white lump on his head .. oh dear!

Tomorrow I will do a small 5% water change and add the salt to the fresh water and add over the day. Will also increase the temp up to around 30C.

How long should I do this for? Oh final query here am I ok to leave the carbon in the tank and should I feed while doing this (jags and or other fish)?

Have found a new home for the LDA33 so he will be leaving the tank tomorrow to go into a fellow local Aquarist society member QT tank.
Cheers guys

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 06 Dec 2011, 08:17

Redfan,
can I suggest you read again the replies you have had... the answers to your questions have been given already. Temp up, air up, carbon out, spot treatment in, salt in, dim lights.
When you add salt, just dissolve it in a jug of water and pour it in, simplez.

With regards to Grokefish's advice... have you checked the nitrates??? If they are high then he's right it is an issue.

wrasse · Post by **wrasse** » 06 Dec 2011, 08:19

Also... I have to say, what are you doing selling a fish from an infected tank? Tell your mate to wait a week or two.

redfan · Post by **redfan** » 06 Dec 2011, 15:38

Wrasse - Yeah your right the answers were there ... However confusion set in etc sorry.

I need to just remove the carbon, I have a half bucket with salt ready to go, so will be doing that this evening. Have increased the temp and added an additional air stone.

As for selling the plec, this was done as eventually he needs to be moved on (the person sold to is unavailable for next few weeks). This was an ideal opportunity and the plec seems very much healthy. The person he is going to will QT him for several weeks, so I do not see why that is such an issue.

I wont be adding the Ich treatment again as the salt should take care of that if it exists in the tank. Re the Nitrates, I did post the results of those last night.

Many thanks for the advice, it's really appreciated and I will update as it goes on.

Cheers

grokefish · Post by **grokefish** » 07 Dec 2011, 19:09

Wrasse knows his stuff so I could defer to his experience however personally I wouldnt add salt or any other meds, just clean the water right up.
Woodcats are pretty hard and with clean water they ususally sort themselves out.
This is just what I would do if it were MY fish, you must make the decision yourself.
Which ever you do will end in the same result probably.
Either:
A Dead fish
A cured fish

If your fish is going to die its gonna happen whatever you do.
I personally think that meds do nothing in particular other than add another stress and that fish get better in spite of them rather than because of them.

That is my opinion.

redfan · Post by **redfan** » 08 Dec 2011, 23:28

Grokefish thanks for you reply

I just need to figure out when to start diluting the salt out of the tank and to put the temp back down.

Had it running at 30C and with salt 2 days now .. no improvement at all really, so will try and give it the week I think wrasse mentioned.

Anyhow, many thanks

Viktor Jarikov · Post by **Viktor Jarikov** » 09 Dec 2011, 01:33

If the following further muddles up the waters, then, Redfan, just forget/disregard it...

When treating ich with salt, it usually takes at least a week at about 2 (or 1-3) teaspoons (5 gram each; or ~3 US lbs per 100 US gal) per US gallon and when the visible parasites disappear, another week is recommended on top. Non-iodized salt is needed. Better without anti-caking agents (calcium salts, chalk that murky up water).

But, I am not sure what we are treating with salt here. Plecos had the velvet. You seemed to have killed the velvet. But as a result your jags are doing not so hot. Are you and Wrasse going on a supposition that jags got velvet too? But that would be visible. I don't get it.

If yes, then it is more understandable. If not, then Groke may be right.

Groke has got a lot of experience, yet he clearly would be in a small minority with wide sweeping statements defying any and all meds and that "if fish's gonna die, it's gonna die". Take it as he said: his opinion. If conflicted, I (personally!) would rely on Marc's advice. After all he is Mister Woodcat for a good reason (or at least I call him that

)

Nitrates are not what I'd call high. Rather normal. Best to keep at 10 ppm and under but 20 ppm cannot be the cause IMHO&E.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 09 Dec 2011, 02:02

But, I am not sure what we are treating with salt here

I would maybe second that. The jags could just be reacting badly to a combination of the meds and the swinging temp/salt content of the water.

I guess without observing them it is hard to say. Both ich and velvet do have a habit of not going away if you don't kill them off completely.

rmiller · Post by **rmiller** » 09 Dec 2011, 04:27

Ok Mark, this is totally a long shot and I have no idea how likely this is so let's not read too much into this until we get more info.

What is the likely hood of fish tuberculosis? 2 with sunken stomachs, one with a lumpy stomach. It tends to thrive at 30C. Is there any possibility of it being something this serious?

Does anyone else know more about this disease?