Synodontis brichardi rasping at tankmates

[N0body Of The Goat]

Came back off holiday to discover most of the 5 adult Ilyodon xantusi I had in with my "Congo rapids" fish have had most of their top scales rasped off and even some flesh underneath, one male looks like he could pass away before the end of the day.

While I did lose a single female Ilyodon when they shared my 5x2x2 with the Africans last summer, she died of unknown causes and there was definitely no sign of rasp marks. The livebearers were reunited with the Africans last Sunday night and I did notice at least one brichardi have a brief <1 second latch onto one Ilyodon. Just before setting off on holiday on Monday, I did notice small scaleless patches in the ~4mm square ballpark, but two of the males now have a patch more like 50-75mm square and it does look there is white flesh damage too (no sign of obvious infection but it cannot be good).

The fish were given their standard two feeds per day until Monday, with just a single feed on Wednesday by family (using pre-portioned food in tub), while we returned home yesterday dinnertime.

While I do have ~7 teenage Ilyodon (that I was going to keep back provisionally as long term breeding stock) and ~35 youngsters in other tanks, I was rather hoping and expecting these beautifully coloured adults to be with me for at least another year.

I've pulled all 5 adults out into a QT using ~80% water from tank they were in, added untreated ~20% tap water (to act as quick anti-bacterial) before then adding plenty of Seachem Prime ~5mins later, then added Escha2000 (although I am a bit concerned about if the meds will do more harm than good on exposed flesh).

A little curiously, one male and one female Ilyodon look as good as untouched, as well as the other tankmates (5x Euchilichthys spp; 1x Synodontis notata; 3x Steatocranus casuarius; 2x Halfbeaks (Hageni?) in the ~72x17x17.

Anyone else had this sort of experience with synos and particularly brichardi?

[syno321]

I have seen the rasping you mention twice before amongst groups of Synos. The first time was a group of angelicus in a large tank. They were particularly nasty, rasping the skin away from the first ray of the dorsal fin to the upper part of the nose. I imagined that this was their way of fighting for dominance. The second time was amongst a group of grandiops (multipunctatus). The scrapping seemed to be restricted to male on male, female on female, with the males damaging each other much more than the females. The rasped flesh was in the same spot as the angelicus but not nearly as extensive. Again, I supposed that this was their way of fighting for dominance. I have never observed any aggression of this kind directed toward any tankmates.

[Birger]

I have never observed any aggression of this kind directed toward any tankmates.

Nor have I in this manner,with any of my synos including the brichardi, it is not so surprising when among synos...to go another direction are the

Euchilichthys

(what species?)tempermental at all towards others.

Am I correct in thinking the Ilyodon xantusi have a bit of attitude themselves?

Birger

[N0body Of The Goat]

I might be pointing the finger prematurely at my 3 (or part of group) brichardi, it was just speculation after seeing this very brief latching/rasp the night before our holiday and then see a small white patch without scales just before leaving the house the next morning.

The mixed species group of 5 Euchilichthys do quarrel (normally briefly, very rarely I might see two of them mouth-to-mouth fighting for ~10seconds) amongst themselves a bit, but it is usually a split-second meeting and then they go ~30cm+ apart from each other. They rarely get funny with the brichardi for a second or two if the brichardi invades their hidey hole in the bogwood mass, but nothing serious at all.
I'm afraid this group are more fish I must get round to getting good photos of and posting an ID thread, I think it contains E. royauxi/ guntheri/ {maybe} cf. astatodon. I was kindly given access directly to Neil Hardy Aquatic wholesale availability lists last summer and so I ordered 5 "African Suckermouths" at a brilliant price, it was pot luck what would arrive, so I ordered 5 just in case it happened to be one of the smaller more social species... As it was I received a group that in theory (if I'm close with the ID) will all get to ~20cm TL over time, but after reading scare stories of conspecific aggression, all is well so far! My 21(?) Pareutropius were part of the same order and do not look like buffei or debauwi to me, more like the smaller mandevillei with a top dark horizontal line that runs into the top caudal fin fork (clear lower fork).

You are right Birger, Ilyodon xantusi can be ok in communities, but they are a little fiesty/boisterous (in that regard they make great dithers for my Steatocranus casuarius, the goodeids played dithers for last years batch of ~50 cichlid fry). From time to time males will challenge each other regarding their hierachy, but it is more of a display than physical harm and when it turns physical, it is usually no more than a few one-off bites on the flanks, not the top (where these patches are).

The most battered male is still with us, but only just, upside down on the QT floor. The other "skinned" male is still swimming upright and acting normal, but his wound is now showing signs of red (might even be blood vessels, the white flesh on both males looks like the rasping did not stop once the scales were removed, hopefully not infection setting in despite the meds).

Another "clue" to this puzzle may originate from the tank these Ilyodon were in before last weekends fish juggle... I sometimes saw various members of the 7 Ambastaia sidthimunki (Dwarf Chain Loaches) almost act like how I picture marine Wrasse, swimming alongside the goodeids and look as if they were "cleaning" around the gills/flank/backs of the livebearers. I've only had the loaches ~6 months so I have no idea if this was common behaviour, but they have never done it with any other tankmates.

[Richard B]

Sorry for the late reply

The behavious that Syno321 describes is a known point of injury in a species group of synos.

In this instance we are summising the syno has molested a livebearer. It is well documented that Oto's & ancistrus (to a lesser degree) in the confines of the aquaria have learned to feed on the mucus of the discus. Seegers pictures an S Afrofischeri 'cleaning' a Haplochromis.

I wonder if what you are seeing is something in between?

[N0body Of The Goat]

Yeah, the slime coat eating possibility had crossed my mind, I just find it a little odd that nothing like this happened last summer when I had my livebearers with my synos in the garage 5x2x2. However, one of my brichardi is newer than last summer, it was bought last September and finally met the other two when I setup the 72x17x17... Maybe it is this rogue one? Then again, maybe this is a "red herring."

Well since discovering the crisis last weekend, I sadly have to report that both rasped males did not make it. These two have no doubt passed on their genes amongst my past (~100) and present (~60) youngsters, but just like when I lost Steatocranus "dad" and my young decora group last February, the feeling of guilt from deaths happening shortly after a move I did weighs me down.

This sad tale has left part of my fish juggle in a bit of a predicament because the plan was to use my adult Ilyodon and 8 of their teenagers as dithers for the 72x17x17, but I am wary adding them again, so this big tank has a whole two Hageni Halfbeaks (who are rasp-free after 12 days) as the only true midwater fish (with my S. notata; 3x brichardi; 5x Euchilichthys; 3x Steatocranus)! If it was not for the 3 Steatocranus now in there, moving the 21(?) Pareutropius cf. mandevillei back over would be an option, but the female Blockhead (who admittedly just been seperated from her babies) was aggressively chasing down the agile yet delicate midwater catfish and thankfully failed before I scooped her out temporarily. And yet if I pulled the Blockheads out, I would then struggle to put them in another tank and not expect trouble between themselves or with tankmates!

Maybe this might finally be the push I needed to get the African dithers I've wanted for a while, albeit I'm a little wary of some things I've read, namely Brycinus longipinnis. Out of the blue I also found two possible sources for another African dither I have had my eye on for a while, namely Arnoldichthys spilopterus, but I am not going to count my chickens before they hatch.

[Birger]

Blockhead (who admittedly just been seperated from her babies) was aggressively chasing down the agile yet delicate midwater catfish and thankfully failed before I scooped her out temporarily. And yet if I pulled the Blockheads out, I would then struggle to put them in another tank and not expect trouble between themselves or with tankmates!

Unfortunately (as I quite like them) this is why I usually do not recommend territorial substrate spawning cichlids for a predominantly catfish tank...often as in this case it becomes a problem.

Birger