I'm putting this here. I want to hear EVERYONES opinion

Grim · Post by **Grim** » 16 Dec 2003, 01:43

I think fish that grow over 1 and a half foot in length should be illegal to sell and keep. Unless they're in a zoo or in a very large tank. I think maybe even a foot should be the largest. I mean I seen someone getting a oscar for a ten gallon. You need to have one heck of a huge tank for them. What about irredescent sharks? They grow over 3 ft in legnth I bought one with the thing saying it wouldn't grow over six. That is bull I've seen little kids getting them. I mean red tail catfish are being sold. Shovel nose catfish. They're huge both of them. I mean if they're that big shouldn't that mean they're meant for the wild not a fish tank? I heard some fish have gotten over five feet. That tank has to be atleast ten feet wide tall and 20 long IMO. What do you all think I want everybodys imput.

Also angelfish grow to a large tank a friend has 2 in a ten. Can't tell him not to do it. I have many times and he keeps'em with neons. I really think he needs to sell them or give'm back but nobody listens. They don't care. They say they're just fish who cares. Another person said fish can live in puddles. Another said you can put'm in anything and they'll live they just need water and food.

I want everybodys opinion. EVERYONES. Tell me what length you think and why.

Please no fighting just tell me why maybe a little arguing but dont take it too far. I couldn't find a better place to post this. But I'm going to all of the the fish forums I'm on posting this to see what everyone thinks. If this is innappropriate or needs to be moved feel free for any mods to do so.

Katman · Post by **Katman** » 16 Dec 2003, 03:08

If you want to get technical about it ,I don't know of any fish that lives in as small a
quantity of water as the hobbiest keeps them in. It is like the old time zoo cages.
If you want to look at from another angle the most suited fish is the gold fish because
it has been bred for that purpose for hundreds of years.
It is not the size of the tank that is the problem it is the water. Some fish that are well
fed lay in the same place any time they are not feeding. So tank size does not matter.
But the water qualityis critical.Put your fish on a flow through and they really grow.
I know this for a fact ,I have raised 13 P. nigers to one meter in a 1,200 gallon tank
plus a bunch of other fish. this is less than one hundred gallons per fish . But if you
look at the fish at any given time they are all lined up together in about 10% of the tank.
I am not saying this is morally right, But in a 40,000 gal pond they do the same thing.
I will say fast growing large fish hurt the hobby more than they help it. Common plecos,
pangasius.and pacu should not be in the trade as a staple item ,But I can't object as
a speciallty item.

RogerMcAllen · Post by **RogerMcAllen** » 16 Dec 2003, 03:37

I like the idea, you could try to hit offending shops up with false advertising by saying that fish will stay smaller than they actually do.
I also agree with replacing hobby staples. Replace the common with a bristlenose and you will have a lot more people happy with thier moderately sized pleco as opposed to those ones with common pleco tankbusters.

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 16 Dec 2003, 04:01

The responsible fishkeeper will find the info before going into a shop to make a purchase.

The burden of finding information rests on the aquariasts shoulders, not the shops. They ought to correct misleading information, but you ought to have checked out the fish in books or a few places online before you buy it. I don't think that you can blame anyone but the keeper for that. I think maybe there should be certain permits involved to keep those who don't care/aren't bright enough to research away from larger fish... but making them illegal is stupid because no matter the size there will be some aquariasts out there able and wanting to keep them.

Katman · Post by **Katman** » 16 Dec 2003, 04:57

This I disagree with you on this, The average hobbiest depends on the fish shop for info
as they should a be able to tell you any thing you want to know about any fish buy, and tell you truthfully.The problem is you have to many people in the busines that have no idea what they are dealling with, to much misinformation. to many books written people who have no idea what they are talking about ,and to many people that only see $$$$$$.

pleco_breeder · Post by **pleco_breeder** » 16 Dec 2003, 06:44

I have to say that a law like that would be nothing more than over-legislation. There are fish which should not be kept, but CITES covers most of them. I believe the majority of this problem rest on the shoulders of the retailer. If they are smart enough to order a 2" redtail cat, they should be able to explain it better than to just say, "It'll only get as big as the tank allows." They are the final line before the inexperienced first time aquarist buys something that could potentially eat the family cat.

I have to admit that a common pleco was one of my first 3 fish, along with a pair of swordtails. Even after having read about keeping tropical fish for several months, I put the whole lot in a 15 gallon tank. After 6 months, I had to move them to a larger 50 gallon breeder because the pleco was already getting close to the 12" mark and I was feeling sorry for him.

My fish ended up living for several more years because I was responsible enough to give him a new home. At the same time, the un-suspecting first time buyer who wants a 10 gallon tank for the kids may not be willing to make the transition to full blown hobbyist and ends up dumping them in the canal.

My point is this. There are aquarists who do like the tank busters and are capable of giving them the room they need. However, there needs to be some sort of initiative to curb unsuspecting buyers from them. This all comes down to the effective dissemination of knowledge before it is too late. This is why we, the more advanced hobbyists, need to be selective about the shops we frequent.

If you know that a shop is using unethical tactics to get these fish out the door, let it be known and protest by not shopping there yourself. If enough people get involved with such a movement, one of two things will happen. Either the business will go under because they are only getting the first time aquarist who knows better than to trust them the next time. Or the owners, in an effort to stay employed, will change their practices.

It is a sad truth that retail is there to make money. However, it is possible to earn a living without having to "stretch the truth". Shops need to realize this.

I've done enough rambling for now.

Larry Vires

catfish_dude · Post by **catfish_dude** » 16 Dec 2003, 08:19

i couldn't agree more , imho fish over 1 foot shouldn't be sold unless to a zoo.
we don't have that much of a problem with huge fish in New Zealand but i have herd it plenty of times from other ppl

Post by **Coryman** » 16 Dec 2003, 13:22

Legislation would be a total farce IMHO. Before it could be implemented, you would have to not only educate all the people that would be needed to enforce such a law, but the whole of the aquatic industry as well. The major problem is identification never mind what size the fish gets to. You only have to look at the 'Whats my Catfish' forum to see what I mean.

S. Alen

The burden of finding information rests on the aquariasts shoulders, not the shops. They ought to correct misleading information, but you ought to have checked out the fish in books or a few places online before you buy it. I don't think that you can blame anyone but the keeper for that.

I can only relate to the UK, but I think it pretty much the same the world over.
Something like 95% of all fish keepers are in the main just the owner of that nice looking piece of furnature in the corner of the living room that has fish in it, or a small pond in the Garden. These people know very little about fish and don't particularly want to learn, they just want a pretty tank. When a fish dies as far as they are concerned it 'Just happens' and the go to the LFS to get another one. When they go to the shop they just see what they like an buy it without a thought, rarely do they ask for advice. There are a lot of shops that are owned by knowledgable people, but employ inexperienced staff and to some of these its 'Just a job'. There are some that do want to learn and these youngsters need all the encouragement they can get. Then there are those in it just for the profit and will sell you anything. I even know of one establishment where the staff are told not to give advise and are repremanded if they do. One comment from pleco_breeder said that these shops would soon go out of bussiness by relying on first time buyers, but this one is still there after 50 years.

The only place where IMO anything could be done is with importers as these people tend to know what they are buying, but then again the Â£ or $ is usually a stronger influance than the ethics of importing fish that cannot be looked after properly.

This will be a good long debate here but I doubt we'll find any answers.

Ian

Grim · Post by **Grim** » 16 Dec 2003, 14:07

S. Allen wrote:The responsible fishkeeper will find the info before going into a shop to make a purchase.

The responsible ones. What about the people that (like said already) just want to buy some fish to look good in a room and doesn't care about cycling,Length of fish, Size tank, 1 inch to 1 gallon rule? What about them?

S. Allen wrote: I think maybe there should be certain permits involved to keep those who don't care/aren't bright enough to research away from larger fish... but making them illegal is stupid because no matter the size there will be some aquariasts out there able and wanting to keep them.

Well not make them illegal I meant something like that.
But I like the permit thing. I think maybe you should have to go to like a school or take a fish keeping test. So that you can get like a permit to buy larger fish. Then if you don't know you can go to a school type thing get maybe taught what you need to know about fish keeping. I don't know, That sounds like its too much to get so fish that most people think are going to die anyways?

Katman · Post by **Katman** » 16 Dec 2003, 15:21

Believe me legislation is the last thing we need. Once it starts you will never own another fish. The changes need to come with in the industry.
One of the main problems is patterns have been set ,Plecos are established in the
tropical fish belt of Florida . There is no way they will not be sold in the trade. Ancistrus
would be a better fish but to produce the numbers required for the demand would
drive the cost to high. If you want to do your part breed Ancistrus and sell them to
your local shops.

Pangasius is another story ,it is not a very good fish ,import loses are high and it is
not produced in the U.S. with any consistency. So it could be replaced by a better or
smaller fish. There are fish that are much more suited such as the Schilbes for example
But in the U.S. they have somehow picked up a bad reputation and will not sell at any
price. This can be corrected by the hobbiest. These fish should be campaigned in every
Hobbiest Magazine possible. Schilbe mystus is commonly called a Grasscutter catfish.
Now you tell me what that tells you about the fish.

Stop the bad publicity and get the chip off your shoulder,If someone ask you for a
cat fish for scavenger don't give them this catfish are not scavengers bit ,ask them what
they have in mind. Lets face the facts almost every fish under the top fish on the food
chain could be considered a scavenger . Just make sure they use a fish that will be
getting the proper kind of food and make sure they get enough of it. Not all tanks are
species tanks. Some times I get the impression that many of the people on the fourm
think that catfish should be the only fish on the market. These fish live together in the wild so you should be able to keep them together in a tank ( with in reason).

The problem is educating the first time hobbiest ,And most of the information on fish
care and breeding comes from the advanced hobbiest ,so pass it on to others But always remember all they know is it takes water to keep a fish alive.

I beleave if every one does their part within 2 to 3 hundred years we can lick the
problem compleatly.

Taratron · Post by **Taratron** » 16 Dec 2003, 21:12

I worked for two years at a pet store. The horrors will not be named. Suffice it to say that there are some people who should have to register in order to breed.

Point is, to over half of the population of the world, pets are just animals, and never ever should you spend more $$ on the animal than you paid for it itself. Your Burmese python has a respitory infection and needs $110 medicine? Well, the animal cost you twenty bucks. You can live with its wheezing---even if it can't.

Fish are just the tip of the iceberg. While I do agree that some animals should not be sold in pet stores (pirahna, irri sharks, Burm pythons, etc), it is just my opinion. Another opinion from another person could easily be: we should ban the sale of all neon tetras, because they carry Neon Tetra Disease, and that can decimate your entire tank.

Legislation does nothing. Cops are not going to enter your house to see if you have a common pleco in a betta bowl.

As small as it is, only the individual can act. And frankly, 90% of them don't give a damn.

S. Allen · Post by **S. Allen** » 16 Dec 2003, 22:07

That is exactly what I have seen, see my last post here for an example http://www.forum.planetcatfish.com/view ... 8&start=15

I've been in petsmart looking at something and over heard the store clerk trying to explain that an oscar got too big for a 10 gallon, the person wouldn't listen, so the clerk sold him the fish. I've seen and heard more cases of people being told and either hearing what they want to hear or not caring at all than I have stores not mentioning it on a large fish. There's nothing you can do about that but tell the person you won't sell them the fish and then they will drive to a place that will and badmouth you to everyone that they can.

No... There are people, a good 80% of those 95% you mentioned coryman, that will do as they please, with the information in their possesion, or at least having been told it once. The original poster's friend is evidence of this.

Fishkeeping might be best if it required a certification... but then again, so would ownership of all animals, as well as raising a child. There's no way to fix this, people will go on abusing their fish, dogs, cats, children and all other sorts of creatures in their care, there are just actual penalties on abusing kids, and to a lesser extent dogs and cats.

Katman · Post by **Katman** » 16 Dec 2003, 23:25

Lets face it there is only one way to solve the problem.ban all fish in tanks.

It is kind of like alcohol, the only way to stop people from abusing it is to compleatlly eliminate it. Once there is enough complaints about the effects of alcohol abuse and the cost , the government well step in and you will not have your glass of wine with your meal.

A good example is the Pomacea canaliculata ( apple snail) . This snail comes from Argentina ,it can take tempatures below 40 C, . It is one of the few if not the only
Pomacea that can. It has been found in the Rice fields of texas and Louisiana eating
the rice plants. The goverments first reaction was to ban the interstate sale of all snails.
After a lot of work they are just looking at the Pomacea family, Which by the way contains all the mystery snails, And in the pet trade is the one snail that has the reputation of not eating plants . Last Info I had the jury is still out on this matter.

The point is the regulators know less about what they are regulating that the people
they are regulating. Just be careful what you wish for.

MackIntheBox · Post by **MackIntheBox** » 17 Dec 2003, 00:13

Katman wrote: It is kind of like alcohol, the only way to stop people from abusing it is to compleatlly eliminate it. Once there is enough complaints about the effects of alcohol abuse and the cost , the government well step in and you will not have your glass of wine with your meal.

and we all know how well that worked with the American Prohibition on Alcohol.

anyway, back to the subject at hand. I dont see intervention of the government as a way to eliminate this. the only real way to combat this is to provide good information and knowledge up front at the store. People are going to do what they want and how they want it, we cant stop that. We are not going to stop little Timmy from going to Petsmart and buying that Oscar for his 10 gallon tank, if he wont listen to us when we tell him it will grow too big then there is lttle else we can do than not sell to him, but then you lose money and can make a bad rep for yourself, kinda like the situation the RIAA is in right now ;)

The one argument I hear from soooo amny people is that "the fish will only grow as big as its tank." Which is true, because eventually it will die! And when that happens little Timmy has no idea why it happened, chalks it up to "stuff happens" and gets another Oscar for his 10 gallon tank until it dies, he then gets the impression that the fish only has a lifespan of however long it lives in that 10 gallon tank, which he then advises his friends of this and more problems start.

the only way to solve this is to help people understand, I can see it now, a PSA for aquarists, lol. but this will inly help those who are willing to listen, if they dnt listen, there is little that you can do, especially if you are trying to stay in business. I do like Petco and Petsmart as 9 times out of 10 they have labes that give the adult size of the fish, this will help you in deciding what you buy and knowing what you will need for it. a 48" fish wil not fit in a 12" tank ;)

I say we get pmphlets put in all pet stores, be required by the government in some way to have these pamphlets on hand in the store, easily visible, that explains the dos and donts of aquaria. This would be the biggest help of all. but then you are still suspect to the person writing the pamphlet, better hope the person writing it really is as knowledgable as you hope he is

Katman · Post by **Katman** » 17 Dec 2003, 00:44

You can only help those who want to be helped.

Back in the early 70s the price of Parrots were nothing ,you could buy a macaw for
$ 50. U.S. , there were so many birds being killed they shut the importation down.
When it was opened up again the prices were so high you couldn't afford to buy your kid
a bird to kill.

You can also protect your own fish in this way. You need to have two prices, one
for the ones you know will take care of the fish , and one so high that someone that
doesn't care can't afford to kill it.

There should be a much higher price for F1 or F2 fish than wild . You will be doing little
to help the big picture but it has to start somewhere.

metallhd · Post by **metallhd** » 17 Dec 2003, 05:11

My response is that like so many other things, it's up to everybody to make sure they're doing "the right thing" - but for any higher being, we are on the honour system

Apart from that, I certainly agree that retailers as the prime contact are completely capable of providing beginner-friendly fish in large part, with a limited choice of higher maintenance species. I imagine that a lot of LFS could start a lucrative side trade in the special order business with a little imagination, my thrust being anyone willing to expend the time and effort to special order a nice fishie isn't the type to plunk the proverbial Oscar - a business starting this venture might also anticipate a domino effect as other local retailers see their limitations without their own. Ian's notion of "just a job" is also particularly apt - the local Big Al's has by far the best selection in town usually including a healthy assortment of pl*cos, but the knowledgeable staff are rare.

Importers / exporters always will as long as the supply / demand is there, and as long as they're responsible all is well - others have concurred in advance however that responsibility takes a back seat in more places than the jungle, and indeed perhaps least there . . .

As long as things exist man will want them, and the sad fact is that our complaints of mistreatment are in fact covetous themselves - "If it was up to me . . ."

It is, start at home because it starts with you. Just my two cents.