My bristlenos of 10 days died today. Anyone know why?

Max_Croft · Post by **Max_Croft** » 25 Jan 2005, 11:12

Hi guys,

I bought a bristlenose catfish 10 days and today I found that she had died. The first two days I had her, everything was fine. She would swim from rock to wood to glass and she cleaned up my brown algae overnight, it was amazing. The third day was when I noticed the change. She hid under the outside of a rock for the whole day, the next day, she had moved to the other side of the rock. She only went up to the glass once again as I tried to pick her up with a fish net to see what was wrong. I noticed the underneath her belly, she was a bit pink. I asked my local fish store about this and he said it was nothing to worry about. The following days, she'd only move to different positions on the same rock until she eventually died today.

The details are:

1.Water Parameters
------------------
Temperature: 27-29*C
pH: 7.0-7.2
GH: 5
KH: 3
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5
Water change: 25% weekly

2. Tank Setup
-------------
Size: 28L (which i think is about 7 gallons)
Substrate: Gravel
Filtration: UGF
Furnishings: Red rock, drift wood, java fern and anubias.
Tank mates: 1 Blue Ram, 2 Lemon Tetra, 2 Phantom Tetra and 2 Green Neon Tetra.
Length of setup: Water has been left to cycle for 7 weeks before adding any fish which were the tetra 3 weeks ago and the Blue Ram 3 days ago. And of course the bristlenose 10 days ago.
Last new fish added: Blue Ram 3 days ago.

Basically, I just want to know if it's anything I've done that caused her death because I've been extra super careful and patient with setting up this tank that it was a huge shock to me to discover her dead. And if it is something I've done, then I would like not to do it again in future. The people at the fish shop told me how well I was doing for a beginner, now I'm not so sure about that.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 25 Jan 2005, 11:34

The only immediate thing that I can think of is that the temperature is a bit on the high side. The bristlenose would probably be fine at that temperature, but it's a higher temperature than their natural environment.

It could just simply be that the fish was stressed from some earlier experiences (transport to the shop or some such). Obviously, a higher temperature than "normal" would not help this.

Also, once it ate all the algae in your tank, what did you give it to eat? Is it possible that it didn't get enough food? These things eat like crazy, and a warmer tank will increase their metabolic rate, so they'll go hungy even quicker in that condition.

I'd say to leave your tank running for a week or two, then try with another bristlenose. If your other fish doesn't require 28'C, I'd also suggest lowering to about 25-26'C. Most fish will be very happy with that temperature.

Feed bristlenoses with Cucumber, Courgette (Zuchini) or just about any other vegetables or fruits. Use a spoon (stuck through the veg) or stone tied to it, to weigh it down so that it gets to "eating height" for the bristlenose, and remove anything that isn't eaten after a day.

Of course, once the Bristlenose reaches it's full size, the 28L tank will be a little bit on the small side for a 5-6" (13-15 cm) fish.

--
Mats

Max_Croft · Post by **Max_Croft** » 25 Jan 2005, 12:12

Thanks for the speedy reply.

In regards to food, I had been feeding her and the rest of the inhabitants of the tank 'Tetra ColorBits Tropical Granuals'. The fish store said this would be sufficient for all of them. But she was only active for 2 days before I she stuck to that rock and if she had moved and swam about the tank, the I never saw it.

As for the temperature, the guys at the fish store told me to keep the temperature at 26*C like you also suggested, but I'm having a hard time doing that as we're right in the middle of summer here with 35*C and more days. I also have the tank in my room which is on the 2nd story and the heat seems to sit up here forever. I've got an air conditioner in my room and it's been on all day. The room temperature is down to 19*C in here and I'm freezing but the current tank temperature is 28.3*C. I've been floating those refreezable ice bricks in the water when the temperature reaches 30*C, but even this only brings it back down a degree or so. I can't believe how hard it's been to keep this tank cool and still I can't get it to stay under 27*C for very long.

The Tetras and the Ram don't appear to be affected by the high temps, but even still I'm careful to keep it as cool as possible.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 25 Jan 2005, 12:29

i think it's very unlikely that it starved to death in 3 days.

find out if the bristlenose was wild or tank bred. the price will be a lot lower if it was tank bred.

i would think a tank bred fish would be ok at that temperature. find out what temp they are kept at in the shop. if it's the same as yours, this probably wouldn't have killed it.

as temp goes up oxygen goes down. these fish do like a lot of oxygen. a lack of oxygen could well stress and kill these fish. an extra air pump will prevent this.

sometimes fish just die for "no reason" (there's always a reason) and there's nothing you can do about it.

maybe the fish just had an internal infection of some sort.

try a bristlenose from a different shop.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 25 Jan 2005, 13:12

Ah, yes. We don't commonly have problems here in England with high temperature, but I can see how having a very hot weather would cause the temperature in the tank to go high.

As Racoll said, lack of oxygen may well be a factor at higher temperatures. I think it's fair to say that the water-circulation (and thus gas-exchange of CO2 and O2 with the surrounding air) could be increased. You nearly can't have too much water-flow for a bristlenose, but of course the other occupants in the tank need to be happy too. A big air-stone (3-6", 8-15 cm) on a separate air-pump (unless you got an over-size air-pump already) would be a suitable solution, or a power-head (electric water-pump) in one corner of the tank. Both will help the fish "breathe" better.

Feeding Tetra bits is probably OK for the short term, but it's a bit too high in protein for long term feeding of bristlenoses, they like to have about 20% protein in their food, and I'm pretty sure the Tetra food is a fair bit higher than that. Supplementing the tetra food with for vegetables would be a good idea, to make sure it gets enough fibres and not too much protein. Short time, as long as the fish gets some food, it should be fine.

It's just that some people seem to think that a 8cm fish can sustain itself on a few bits of algae for weeks and just feed the odd flakes to the other fish. This is especially a problem if you have fish that 'eat anything', and others that are picky/slow eaters.

Of course, as Racoll stated "Sometimes they die for no reason", which is to say that you may not have done anything wrong at all, just happened to get the fish that was a bit weak and poorly... Trying another shop may be an idea, just in case it's something that the shop has that makes it go "bad" on you.

--
Mats

Post by **Barbie** » 25 Jan 2005, 17:12

When you say the tank was up "cycling" for 7 weeks, how exactly did you do that? Were you feeding it somehow?

Barbie

Tom2600 · Post by **Tom2600** » 26 Jan 2005, 00:50

Hi

Sorry to hear you lost your new plec.

From your conditions etc. my gut feeling points to the fact your tank only hold 7 gallons. The smaller the amount of water the more trouble you will have with variations in the water parameters.

I would guess that you tank is not fully mature and that your bristlenose, already stressed from the nove to a new tank, has died because of this. It could however be that the bristlenose just died, althought this is unlikely.

Put this one down to experience. It sounds like your trying to do everything right. My main bit of advice would be to feed small amounts until your tank is 5-6 months old (and hopefully mature).

Regards

Tom

Max_Croft · Post by **Max_Croft** » 26 Jan 2005, 05:17

Barbie: I helped it to cycle by grabbing a handful of gravel from my sister's goldfish bowl put it into a stocking and tied it up so it was hanging over the edge of my bowl into the water.

Tom: Since I've introduced the first fish to the tank, the guy at the fish store suggested feeding the fish only one pellet of Tetra ColorBits Tropical Granuals once every second day. Because of the Ram, I've now got some frozen blood worms which the fish store guy told me to now feed once a day but alternating from the frozen blood worms to the tropical granuals every day.

So, given the size of my tank, do you think that it was a bad idea from the start putting a bristlenose in there? If that's so, then I don't want to put another bristlenose through the same toture. It's just that the people at the fish store seemed to think that I was just on the line of overstocking the tank. I do love the bristlenose, it's my favourite catfish, but I'll go without one if it'll make the bristlenose as well as the other tank mates happier.

Thanks again to everyone for their detailed and helpful replies. It's certainly appreciated.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 26 Jan 2005, 09:16

you mention yours is a bowl. the problem with a bowl of 7 gallons is that there is very little surface area for oxygen to diffuse into the tank in comparison with a regular rectangular tank.

also, tanks of this size (under 10 gallons) are very poor at buffering changes in water parameters (as stated before by tom2600)

this means that even a small amount of uneaten food can quickly poison the water.

regardless of what the guy in the fish store said, bristlenoses can't be treated as just tank scavengers, they will require a largely vegetarian diet to keep them in good health.

given that your tank is a bowl, i wouldn't recommend getting any more.

if it is a tank, then you probably could keep one until it reaches about 3 inches. then you will have to buy a bigger aquarium or get rid of the bristlenose.

fish are only limited in size by their genetic make-up and their supply of food. ie, they will not "just grow to the size of the tank"

depending on the exact species, the bristlenose will reach about 6 inches.

why not try an Otocinclus instead?

Max_Croft · Post by **Max_Croft** » 26 Jan 2005, 13:34

Sorry, I had bowl in my head after picturing my sister's goldfish bowl .. however, mine is an actual tank (30x33x38cm).

Wow! I just had a look at the Otocinclus cocama (was this the one you had in mind?) and what a great looking catfish! And judging by the details, it would appear that it would do much better given the size of my tank. Thank you very much for the suggestion.

I'll still heed Tom's advice and wait until my tank has been running for 6 months before I make the purchase.

I think I remember seeing those Otocinclus at the fish store. It amazes me then as to why I was suggested a bristlenose when another species would've been much more suitable.

I did all my own homework on the Tetras and the Blue Ram but I took their advice on catfish. If only I'd have found planetcatfish.com before I went ahead with the purchase, that bristlenose might still be alive today. That ticks me off.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 26 Jan 2005, 13:53

The Zebra Oto's are very nice looking. They are among the more expensive of the Otocinclus species. I found a place here in England advertising them for 7.50GBP each (about 15.00 USD), and that's at a place where the other fish I looked at was lower than my LFS, so presumably these would be more expensive at my LFS. I don't know how their price would be in Australia, but I would think that they aren't going to be on the "cheapest fish in the shop" row...

There are other Oto's that come in much lower prices. They are all good algae cleaners.

Oto's are generally "shoaling" fish, so they prefer to have a few friends of the same (or similar) specie next to them to feel comfortable. So I would recommend having a few of them.

The shop staff may have their own experiences with Oto's vs. Bristlenoses that cause them to recommend that you go for the Bristlenose instead of the Oto's.

Unfortunately, a lot of fish-shops have staff that give poor advice from time to time. This can happen for a number of reasons:
- They don't know all the details aboout what you want. This is not their fault, but yours for not giving the whole picture.
- They mix you up with some other customer, and thus think that you have a different set of tanks/fish than what you actually have. I can see this happening if you're not that regular at the shop [I tend to go every week to my shop, and they may not know my by first name, but they certainly recognise me].
- They are greedy, and want to sell the more expensive fish.
- They are ignorant on the subject you're asking about, and instead of saying "I don't really know", give some misleading advice because it sounds good, or because they actually think it's correct.
- They are in a hurry to serve customers, and haven't got the time to help you properly, but suggests something that will "get rid of you".
- They have themselves been mislead something, which makes them give you the wrong information. If someone they believe in tells them that fish X doesn't grow to more than 3", then they will of course tell customers that it grows to 3", even though it may grow to 5 feet... They should of course check things themselves, but I can see that it's hard to keep track of thousands of different species of fish...

Doing some research yourself before getting the fish is always a good idea.

--
Mats

Tom2600 · Post by **Tom2600** » 27 Jan 2005, 00:20

Hi

Full credit to you for doing so much research after the death of your fish. Many fishkeepers just rush straight out and buy another, often because their aquatic store says they are fine to do so. NEVER believe everything you hear in a shop. Ultimately, amny try to seel fish. A good aquatics will always help you and often this means telling you to go away and come back when your tank is more mature.

You sound like you are doing the right thing. Keep up the water changes. Always feed a little less than you think, if you do overfeed just syphon out the untouched food.

I'm sure in the not too distant future you will get a bigger tank, most of us started with a small tank and then the bug bites hard!

Good luck

Max_Croft · Post by **Max_Croft** » 27 Jan 2005, 02:20

I would just like to say a big thank you to all those who posted suggestions and opinions. It was more than helpful.

Oh, and it's funny you mentioned that nasty bug bite as I after I spoke to the guys at the fish store, I went on over to their tank section and was checking out a few of their 200 litre tanks. I haven't even paid my car registration yet and I'm looking at other tanks already? Not good! ... But there were some really good ones.

megladonsharky · Post by **megladonsharky** » 27 Jan 2005, 04:36

I have a similiar size tank an 8 gallon and resently got a clown pleco.. the clown is all of an 1 1/2 inches and wont go past four.. it may be a better choice ...I am just a beginner at fish keeping

megladonsharky · Post by **megladonsharky** » 27 Jan 2005, 04:37

sorry to post twice but .. today i just got three draf cory cats they will max out under an inch and went right to cleaning:) what i wanted:0

Post by **Barbie** » 27 Jan 2005, 06:57

Not to mention they're cute as heck and the shopgirl was good for a giggle while you were browsing! *grin*

Barbie