L-260 Here today. Sadly gone tomorrow.

Beersnob · Post by **Beersnob** » 06 Mar 2005, 14:25

Hi,

I recently bought an L-260 yesterday at a Tropical Fish Auction in Metro-Detroit sponsored by GDAS. The fish was looking well when I wen to bed, when I awoke the L-260 was dead.

As a result these are the options that I thought of:

1) Temperature below 74F in the Church Basement (Auction held here).

2) The poor guy was bagged the day before and we let him free in our tank at 6 pm.

3) The Cat-E-Log states that the nitrates are very bad for this fish.

Can anyone tell me how senstive an L-260 is to nitrite/nitrate exposure?

Now to the information you requested:

Water Quality parameters are as follows:
1) Ammonia next to nil (not detectable by colorimetry.
2) Nitrites next to nil
3) About 25 mg/L Nitrate via colorimetry.
4) pH = 7.1
5) Hardness would be generally soft. It's Detroit City Water! I do not own a GH, or KH kit.
6) Frequency would be 1 to 2 water changes in a 2 week period.
7) Tank Temeperature is about 76F +/-2 F

Tank Setup
1) 46 gallon Bow-front
2) Gravel substrate - brown/black coloration
3) Eheim Ecco Filter (cannister)
4) Heavy driftwood (sinks), heavily planted, some "Cichlid caves for the fish to enjoy (no cichlids reside here!)
5) Tank has been in operation since 2002. 3 months ago we cleaned the gravel, removed the UGFS, and added additional BiroSpiro Bacteria culture.
6) Tankmates include the following: Clown Loaches, killifish, molly, small group of cories, 2 dianema longibarbis (my favorite fish), bluemystis, zebra otos, a lone albino bristlenose pleco, and a clown pleco.

Symptoms
1) L-260 dead in the morning

Not a happy experience. No marks no nothing.
2) Ambient is about 20 F

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Tom2600 · Post by **Tom2600** » 06 Mar 2005, 16:05

Sorry to hear you lost your L260.

You say Ammonia and nitrite "next to nil". If you have any readings for these then... 1) your filter is not mature 2) and/or you are overfeeding and or have too much bioload in your tank.

However, if this plec was bagged up for 24 hours plus then this will have caused a huge amount of stress. Often stress alone can kill a fish.

In general L260s are relatively hardy but they need large amounts of dissolved oxygen and stable, good quality water. It would definitely have suffered having been bagged for such a long time.

Maarten · Post by **Maarten** » 06 Mar 2005, 16:06

74F is a bit on the low side but that shouldn't kill him overnight.. but did you keep the bag at 74+ degrees F?

And how large was the bag? if the L260 has been there a day or so it could died from its own poo in the bag.

I'm happy all my L260s are still alive and happy

Post by **Birger** » 09 Mar 2005, 06:16

Possibly PH shock.

Not sure if this is what happened to your fish but with deaths like this it can be the case, I have seen this especially with Rift Lake fish due to the extremes in PH that occur.I realize your fish is not from these lakes but the same theory is still involved.For myself, often it is quite a few hours before I get any new aquisitions home so I have to be extra careful.

The Ph in the bag will drop sometimes quite drastically depending on the amount of waste and time spent in the bag.The usual ways of introducing fish are okay(I am prone to rushing this and I am probably not the only one). but with sensitive fish or when in a bag for a long time shock can occur.

Usually with the fish going into a quarantine tank the PH of the water in the bag is checked, if there is a drastic difference, drop the ph in the quarantine tank using acid to the same as the water in the bag,when the fish is transfered as you normally would the PH is the same and then will slowly rebound by itself to a normal level.
I use citric acid purchased from a drugstore and some experimentation is needed to find out how much is needed to control the drop in PH.
I picked up this habit from some importer friends of mine(they use muriatic acid).
You can't do this in a community tank but you shouldn't be releasing straight into such a tank anyway,its a bit risky for a number of reasons.

Birger

Beersnob · Post by **Beersnob** » 15 Mar 2005, 03:16

Tom,

I'm not sure by what you mean "mature filter?" Can you elaborate?

Also, by using the colorimetry method there is a significant amount of error depending upon lighting, user error, incorrect colors on the colorimetry cards, and outdated solutions. While these will ballpark the nitrite, nitrate, and ammonia, they are at best indicators of potential problems. To properly due this we would need a lab. Can you please explain (chemically and biochemically) why there would be significantly more ammonia and nitrite? My understanding of these reactions is that they are bacterial in nature and by having low levels of ammonia and nitrite, I am generating a fairly good water quality. So I am confused by your statement.

Thanks,

Scott

Beersnob · Post by **Beersnob** » 15 Mar 2005, 03:20

Maarten,

The bag was the average LFS store size. Not too large. This guy that was the "seller" has jumped down my throat in the past for asking questions about the syno or mispronouncing the scientific names. Kind of makes you want to jump more in the hobby!

I know he is not a member of GDAS, so I will make sure that I do not buy any more fish from him.

Thanks,

Scott

Beersnob · Post by **Beersnob** » 15 Mar 2005, 03:21

Birger,

Would adding some of the tank water to the fish over time take care of the potential pH shock? I'd like to understand this in further detail.

Thanks,

Scott

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 15 Mar 2005, 09:30

Beersnob wrote:Tom,

I'm not sure by what you mean "mature filter?" Can you elaborate?

Also, by using the colorimetry method there is a significant amount of error depending upon lighting, user error, incorrect colors on the colorimetry cards, and outdated solutions. While these will ballpark the nitrite, nitrate, and ammonia, they are at best indicators of potential problems. To properly due this we would need a lab. Can you please explain (chemically and biochemically) why there would be significantly more ammonia and nitrite? My understanding of these reactions is that they are bacterial in nature and by having low levels of ammonia and nitrite, I am generating a fairly good water quality. So I am confused by your statement.

Thanks,

Scott

I'm not Tom, but I'll try to answer your questions...

A Mature Filter is one that has the relevant bacteria (nitrobacter) that break down the Ammonia into first Nitrite and then Nitrate. If you have a mature filter, the balance of Ammonia breakdown and Nitrite breakdown will be good, so you should not be able to read any ammonia or nitrite in your water test.

I believe Tom's point is that if you get a reading of ANY nitrite or ammonia, you're not having a good water quality. Of course, it depends on what we mean by "ANY". In my mind, that means "less than 0.1 ppm", which is normally the first colour available above the "nothing" colour on your test-kit.

I agree, to be 99% sure of he test-value of a water sample, it needs to be analyzed with different methods than "colouring it", or at least the colour measured precisely using spectrometry or similar. But if you have a colour that represents "none" in the chart, you should be very close to that colour. Closer than the next level colour, or something is wrong.

Unfortunately, unless you want to spend several hundred dollars (possibly much more) on test equipment, all you're going to get is a set of chemicals that colour the water based on it's content of some chemical, and that's never going to be a very precise measure. We all know that.

I think the confusion is that you're saying "Next to NIL", by which I think Tom interpreted that you actually have an indication of Nitrite and Ammonia in your water. I read it as "I don't get a reading above zero, but of course there will be some tiny amount in the water". And there will be, unless you just distilled the water...

--
Mats

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 15 Mar 2005, 09:38

Beersnob wrote: Would adding some of the tank water to the fish over time take care of the potential pH shock? I'd like to understand this in further detail.

Thanks,

Scott

I'm not Birger either...

Yes, adding water from the tank will reduce the difference in water all parameters. You should aim to add at least twice as much water into the bag as you had in the bag in the first place, and if there's any chance that your water is significantly different, it's probably a good idea to tip out some of the existing water and add MORE of your water before putting the fish in the tank.

The other factor is that if the fish is in the water for a long time, it will build up a lot of ammonia (and perhaps nitrite) that will potentially cause terminal illness on the fish. [The ammonia comes from the fish excreting ammonia from it's gills, it's way of "peeing"]. This is certainly a clear possibility in this case. Nothing much you can do about that other than having a large bag to begin with, and thus having more water to dissolve the ammonia in. It gets worse if the water is also hard, as hihger pH will make the ammonia more poisonus. I don't know what water qualities the fish was in when you bought it, and it would probably only make a small difference anyways...

--
Mats

Beersnob · Post by **Beersnob** » 16 Mar 2005, 03:20

MatsP,

Thanks for the info.

Yes, by next to nil, I am as close to zero as possible with the accuracy of the test kit (you can't tell I'm an engineer can you?). That's why I was confused by the other post when I was stating there's a very very small amount of ammonia and nitrite. Otherwise, I wouldn't have much left in the tank as they all be floating to the top!

From the information I've seen in my posts, it looks like my tank and filter were operating acceptably. Are these L-260 plecos that sensitive to nitrate? iof so would a nitrate filter make sense? I know that these filters are expensive so any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Scott

Post by **Barbie** » 16 Mar 2005, 04:50

IMO the L260 aren't that sensitive to nitrates. Low DO levels, yes, but nitrates under 50ppm or so shouldn't have stressed them too badly if they were properly acclimated. The only true nitrate "filter" would be water changes or plants to uptake them effectively. Denitrators are usually used in saltwater and not terribly effective there either, IMO.

Barbie

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 16 Mar 2005, 10:04

Beersnob wrote:MatsP,

Thanks for the info.

Yes, by next to nil, I am as close to zero as possible with the accuracy of the test kit (you can't tell I'm an engineer can you?). That's why I was confused by the other post when I was stating there's a very very small amount of ammonia and nitrite. Otherwise, I wouldn't have much left in the tank as they all be floating to the top!

Unfortunately, being "precise" isn't always a good thing. If your best reading of the value is "Zero", then quote zero in the information. The two of us know that it's not going to be zero, at least not if there is fish in there. But the amount is so low that your test-kit doesn't show any value, which is good enough for most purposes, assuming your test-kit is for aquariums, and not something to measure ammonia in, say, sewer systems or some such... [Where the sensitivity probably would need to be 10x-1000x less sensitive, and a "zero reading" would potentially mean several ppm of ammonia for instance].

Beersnob wrote: From the information I've seen in my posts, it looks like my tank and filter were operating acceptably. Are these L-260 pl*cos that sensitive to nitrate? iof so would a nitrate filter make sense? I know that these filters are expensive so any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Scott

Less than about 20-25 ppm is fine for just about ANY fish, and from what Barbie says, the L260 is not a highly sensitive fish on nitrate.

I get a reading of less than 12.5 according to my test-kit, but then I've got plenty of plants, not particularly heavy stocking in the tank, and about 25% water change every week. If anything, the plants look like they could do with a bit more food... But I'm not going to add nitrate to keep the plants happy....

--
Mats

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 16 Mar 2005, 12:25

There's two main theories on post-bag death:

1) The fish is in the bag for a number of hours, and all the time, pH keeps dropping due to CO2 accumulation, and the fish keeps releasing ammonia. Due to the low pH (anything below 7.5 - 8 is low in this context), the lethally toxic ammonia is transformed to only slightly toxic ammonium.
When the fish then transferred out of the bag to clean water with a pH of 7.5 or higher, the slightly toxic ammonium in the blood is transformed to lethally toxic ammonia, and the fish dies.

You will mainly see this with rift fish and marine fish which've been in the bag for a considerable time, because of the high pH's of marine/rift tanks.

2) Soft water fish do fine in hard water, and are often kept like that by e.g. petshops. This is important because hard water usually also have a high osmotic potential (high salt content). Moving a fish from a water with low osmotic potential (typically water that's soft and with low pH, e.g. RO-water) to water with high osmotic potential (e.g. most tapwater, like most petshops use) is usually no problem.
The problem arises when fish is transferred from water with high osmotic potential to water with low osmotic potential: this has to be done slowly, or the fish will die. Presumably death is caused by diluting the body fluids and/or rupturing cell membranes.

The take-home message is this:

* Fish bound for a tank with high pH, and which have been in a bag for hours, may need to go in water with low pH (below 7.5) for an hour or so to get rid of excess ammonium before being moved to the final destination. The osmotic potential (salt content) of both waters should of course be about the same.

* Fish moved from hard water, or water with added salt, to soft water should be acclimatized slowly.

There is, IMO, no cause of death among fish called 'pH shock'. It is impossible to kill fish by moving them between clean waters which are equal in everything except pH, provided both waters have a pH anywhere between 6 and 9.

However, both ammonia toxicity and osmotic potential are correlated to pH.

Post by **Birger** » 20 Mar 2005, 16:16

I am definately no scientist,just a hobbyist for thirty some years,choice of words and their understanding of them can be different depending where you are from and sometimes I tend to simplify.
Mike thankyou for the exellent explanation and jumping in on this.

Birger

kwalker · Post by **kwalker** » 20 Mar 2005, 16:26

i keep my breeding colony at 85 degrees. this fish in the wild comes from very warm highly oxeganated water. the ph is nuetral at 7.1 and the water hardness is at about 225 ppm. your parameters seem ok. the fish probably got shocked being bagged the way it was. the important thing in bagging these fish for any lenght of time is to add oxegan. i hope this helps.

more importantly sorry for your loss of the L-260 it is truely an awesome fish.

ken

Elspeth · Post by **Elspeth** » 20 Mar 2005, 17:08

Mike, thanks for your post!

Let me run an idea past you. If the destination tank water is at least as hard as the bag water, and the pH the same or higher in the tank, would it be better to forget the traditional slow water swapping and simply relase the fish into the tank as soon as the temperature matches?