Mergus "Wels Atlas Vol.2" (=Catfish Atlas)

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 19 Oct 2005, 18:58

Today I received a copy of Vol. 2 of the Mergus Catfish Atlas. It has 1.359 pages and covers only Loricariidae catfish of the subfamilies Ancistrinae, Hypostominae, Lithogeneinae and Neoplecostominae. L-Numbers are covered up to L387 and LDA86. Many L-Numbers are there with their scientific name, if it could be detected. The authors Ingo Seidel and Hans-Georg Evers are both well known catfish experts. They carried together the status quo of knowledge about these fishes. In opposite to some catalogs you can find herein lots of information about distribution, ecology and biology of the fishes. Its an overwhelmding source of information. If you did not find a reason to learn German bevore, now there is one

Erwin

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 19 Oct 2005, 19:22

I don't think my General Certificate of Secondary Education D grade will stretch to "interoperculer odontodes" !!!

Any idea when volume 1 will be published in English?

Surely translating and printing an english version would be the easy part once it's been written?

danke

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 19 Oct 2005, 21:13

And what taxonomic path do they follow? Do we see Panaque split into Panaqolus or Scobinancistrus absorbed into Panaque?

I am very much looking forward to seeing this book. I am sure it will become a legend.

Erwin, which other catelogs do you mean?

Jools

PS It'd be nice if someone asked me to organise the translation of vol. 2...

Dave Rinaldo · Post by **Dave Rinaldo** » 19 Oct 2005, 21:28

Jools

PS It'd be nice if someone asked me to organise the translation of vol. 2...

Walter · Post by **Walter** » 19 Oct 2005, 23:08

Hi,

racoll wrote:
Any idea when volume 1 will be published in English?

this year ;) (ask amazon - "Catfis_c_h Atlas").

But part 2 should have been published already more than one year ago - same story years ago with part 1, late, late, late ;)

Walter · Post by **Walter** » 19 Oct 2005, 23:10

Hi Jools,

Jools wrote:And what taxonomic path do they follow? Do we see Panaque split into Panaqolus or Scobinancistrus absorbed into Panaque?

.

to guess right ist not diffucult - its a German book.

Walter · Post by **Walter** » 19 Oct 2005, 23:12

Hi,

racoll wrote:I don't think my General Certificate of Secondary Education D grade will stretch to "interoperculer odontodes" !!!

I think, it will - itÂ´s "Interopercularodontoden".

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 20 Oct 2005, 07:13

Hi Jools, Walter,

the reason why it follows in taxonomy IsbrÃ¼cker et al. and not Armbruster has nothing to do with the fact that it is a German book. The fact is that IsbrÃ¼cker et al. gave reasons based on characters for their taxonomical splitting while Armbruster so far missed it to do the same for his lumping.

Erwin

Walter · Post by **Walter** » 20 Oct 2005, 08:29

Hi Erwin,
I know - it was a joke.

Ingo Seidel also explained (e.g. at Datz Forum), why he uses the 14 Datz Genera and does not follow Armbruster in this point.
But he does patially in other points - e.g. using subtribus Ancistrini.

Post by **Marc van Arc** » 20 Oct 2005, 09:01

Erwin wrote:Hi Jools, Walter,

the reason why it follows in taxonomy IsbrÃ¼cker et al. and not Armbruster has nothing to do with the fact that it is a German book.

Moreover, despite his German sounding name, IsbrÃ¼cker is a (very funny) Dutchman.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 20 Oct 2005, 20:12

I don't really see this from a polarised IsbrÃ¼cker et al. or Armbruster viewpoint, what the rest of us have to pick through is an emerging picture of what the scientific community as a whole accepts or will accept over time.

Seems to me that the DATZ genera may have some continued use over time but it appears the bulk of new work doesn't use them and they will end up existing in aquarist literature only.

But then, who's to know.

It's certainly not for me to say one way or the other, rather to follow the trend. As I've said before I've been trying to follow CLOFFSCA which uses some of the DATZ 14 genera but rejects others.

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm really looking forward to getting the book as while the names may be a point of debate, surely there can be little debate over the wealth of information within.

Jools

Mika · Post by **Mika** » 21 Oct 2005, 13:37

Erwin- how would you compare it your All L-numbers book on picture bases?

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 21 Oct 2005, 15:21

There are several differences. Because of my possiblities to take every few weeks pictures at one of the largest wholesalers in Europe, the all-L-number book can show a huge variety of phenotypes of many species. For some species we could therefore spend several pages to show this variety. At least for all the LDA-numbers they are (naturally

) the original pictures.

Evers and Seidel on the other hand have travelled a lot in South America and have new pictures of new species from the places where they have catched fish. From many species they have pictures from the fry and growing stages. Also they use their own pictures for illustration, whenever they have them. Intersting is also how they interpret the species status of some species. For me this will be a interesting lecture for many weeks!

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 21 Oct 2005, 15:34

A completely different question:

Amazon doesn't carry those books, not even http://www.amazon.de
no part II in any case.

any clue wich wholesaler or book-selling agency DOES?

and plz international; I already ran headlong into noncooperation once when trying to order the old "Welskunde" once; the online store simply refused to ship outside Germany

1 stamp extra was a major problem I guess

weird since I'm used to the buyer paying for the shipment.
not the store

Since I already have Welsatlas 1, I want to have pt2 as well; I can read German with no difficulties ofcourse.

shipmentcosts are likely far less than gasoline costs when I have to drive to Germany; petrol being fluid gold these days

Post by **Silurus** » 21 Oct 2005, 16:01

Amazon doesn't carry those books, not even http://www.amazon.de
no part II in any case.

I got this searching amazon.de.

Durlänger · Post by **Durlänger** » 21 Oct 2005, 16:58

No Wels Atlas Bt.2 found by my research about Mergus on amazon.de but the most book`s of them even French and Spain.

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/search ... 55-3222405

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 21 Oct 2005, 19:32

HH, that's pt1, and I got that one; I found it too.

Durlanger, I also got Aquarienatlas pt 1-6, all in German, but tnx

but pt 2 isn't on sale yet, through Amazon.

weird, because quite often you can even pre-order books that are being printed, sometimes months ahead even (think HP and others)

Erwin, did you got yours by mailorder, or bought it in a LFS or some other construction?

Post by **Silurus** » 21 Oct 2005, 19:42

That's funny, I used the ISBN of Vol. 2 for the search. Potentially misleading if you don't understand German.

Mika · Post by **Mika** » 22 Oct 2005, 14:20

A completely different question:

Amazon doesn't carry those books, not even http://www.amazon.de
no part II in any case.

weird, because quite often you can even pre-order books that are being printed, sometimes months ahead even (think HP and others)

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... light=wels

Two weeks ago it was possible to pre-order it.I didn`t do that

Maybe Mergus has some delivery problems?

Post by **Shane** » 22 Oct 2005, 18:41

the reason why it follows in taxonomy IsbrÃ¼cker et al. and not Armbruster has nothing to do with the fact that it is a German book. The fact is that IsbrÃ¼cker et al. gave reasons based on characters for their taxonomical splitting while Armbruster so far missed it to do the same for his lumping.

I am not sure it is accurate to describe this "debate" as Isbrucker et al vs. Armbruster. Several of the DATZ aquarium magazine genera have been repudiated by various professional taxonomists in peer reviewed journals. The great majority (12 out of 13) of the DATZ genera are only held up in German aquarist literature. Of the 13 described by Isbrucker et al, only one remains valid. It is also important to point out that Armbruster only sunk two out of the 12 that have been sunk. That is why I say it is not accurate to describe this as Isbrucker et al vs Armbruster.

I do not want to appear to be taking sides on the issue, I am just pointing out the facts.

The below list only includes the original synonymy. It is important to note that in many cases additional taxonomic papers published in peer reviewed journals by taxonomists from throughout the world have upheld the below placements. So, for example, while Ferraris sunk Hemiloricaria in 2003, this position was supported by latter authors such as Rodriquez and Miquelarena (2005) of Argentina.

DATZ Genera
Hemiloricaria - (synonym of Rineloricaria Ferraris in Reis et al 2003)
Ancistomus - (synonym of Peckoltia Fisch-Muller in Reis et al 2003)
Fonchiiichthys - (synonym of Rineloricaria Ferraris in Reis et al 2003
Guyanancistrus - (synonym of Pseudancistrus Armbuster 2004)
Lampiella - (synonym of Otocinclus Schaefer in Reis et all 2003)
Leliella - (synonym of Rineloricaria Ferraris in Reis et al 2003)
Macrotocinclus (synonym of Otocinclus Schaefer in Reis et al 2003)
Panaqolus (synonym of Panaque Fisch-Muller in Reis et al 2003)
Proloricaria - (synonym of Loricaria Ferraris in Reis et al 2003)
Pseudolithoxus - valid
Quiritixys (synonym of Harttia Ferraris in Reis et al 2003)
Sophiancistrus (synonym of Peckoltia Fisch-Muller in Reis et al 2003)
Squaliforma - (synonym of Hypostomus Armbruster 2004)
Zonancistrus (synonym of Dekeyseria Fisch-Muller in Reis et al 2003)

-Shane

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 22 Oct 2005, 18:47

You can try this book-order address:

http://www.animalbook.de/

they have an English section. If they don't have the book already in stock, just send them an email, they are not a big company and can order it for you individually!

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 22 Oct 2005, 19:46

Just checked it, it on stock:

http://www.animalbook.de/shop/product_i ... -ingo.html

Walter · Post by **Walter** » 22 Oct 2005, 23:06

Hi,
HHÂ´s link shows "Welsatlas 2" - I hope, Amazon will change this mistake soon.
Months ago they had the correct "name" of the book on their site. (Many pleco fanatics had preordered already in 2004).

Here is the link from Mergus: http://www.mergus.de/wels_atlas_2.html
Compare the ISBN.

sidguppy · Post by **sidguppy** » 22 Oct 2005, 23:20

Thanks, Erwin!!

this store actually ships international and for a mere 4-5E I can't drive to Germany to pick it up at the LFS, it won't even get me to the border.

great, I'm gonna order my copy this weekend

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 23 Oct 2005, 00:01

Shane wrote:Sophiancistrus (synonym of Peckoltia Fisch-Muller in Reis et al 2003)
Squaliforma - (synonym of Hypostomus Armbruster 2004)

Apparently Peckoltichthys is a older available name for Sophiancistrus, and I suspect this may gain usage. Squaliforma is used in CLOFFSCA I think? Need to check the other stuff but I'm NOT going to play musical chairs again until I read the book.

Jools

Mika · Post by **Mika** » 23 Oct 2005, 07:31

I am not sure it is accurate to describe this "debate" as Isbrucker et al vs. Armbruster.

What`s the story behind the fact that Europian Isbruecker and Knaack(both wellknown in scientific catfish world) are not participant in all-catfish project?

Erwin · Post by **Erwin** » 23 Oct 2005, 15:33

To my knowledge was Peckoltichthys established by Miranda Ribeiro in 1917 with Peckoltichthys filicaudatus as a replacement name for Peckoltia, which the same author established in 1912 for Chaetostoma vittatus. The reason for this was, that he found out that Peckoltia was in use before already for a genus in plants. But because taxonomy in plants and animals don't have to be unique, this replacement name was not neccessary, and all Peckoltichtys became again Peckoltia. To my knowledge were only Peckoltichthys filicaudatus and P. kuhlmanni (Mirand Ribeiro, 1920) originally described in this replacement genus. Sophiancistrus however was created for Peckoltia ucayalensis and P. arenaria, and maybe should be used for Peckoltia bachi. So I can't find any reason at all to transfer them into Peckoltichthys.

Post by **Silurus** » 23 Oct 2005, 15:39

What`s the story behind the fact that Europian Isbruecker and Knaack(both wellknown in scientific catfish world) are not participant in all-catfish project?

IsbrÃ¼cker is retired now.

YouTube · Post by **Jools** » 24 Oct 2005, 16:28

On a related note, I spoke with Hans at the weekend. He tells me that the Wels Atlas 1 will be available in English in November. He has already seen the first copy, the rest is on its way from Singapore! Hans has reviewed the first German edition and added another 70 pages (nomenclatural changes, new species, etc.) and THEN this was translated into English. I.E. you will have a book with the latest changes.

Cheers,

Jools

davidkozak · Post by **davidkozak** » 24 Oct 2005, 20:00

Darn, I just ordered the German 2nd edition two day's ago... :( Oh well...David